Kevin Anderson – The Truth About Ghost Writing: What It Costs, Who Does It, and How It Actually Works

Kevin Anderson is the CEO, founder, and editor-in-chief of Kevin Anderson & Associates, one of the publishing industry's most respected ghost writing and editorial firms. With a team of former Big Five acquisitions editors, publishing executives, literary agents, and bestselling authors, his company has helped bring more than 7,000 books to life — producing around 500 titles per year. Their clients range from celebrities and Fortune 500 CEOs to first-time memoir writers with extraordinary stories to tell.

In this episode:

• How ghost writing actually works — and why it's a deeply collaborative process, not just writing from a prompt
• Why skilled ghost writers are nothing like AI: the role of empathy, intuition, and journalistic interview skill
• The types of clients who hire ghost writers: celebrity memoirs, business books, IP-based novels, and personal legacy pieces
• How Kevin Anderson & Associates structures every project, including kick-off meetings, ongoing Zoom interviews, beta testing, and cultural accuracy reviews
• Why defining your publishing goal before you write a single word is the most important first step
• The First Chapter Rule: why getting sign-off on one complete chapter before writing the rest saves enormous time and prevents costly mistakes
• Typical project timelines — from 6-week rush projects to the more standard 8–12 month engagement
• How ghost writing fiction differs from nonfiction, and why novels are actually harder to structure than business books
• What ghost writing costs — from entry-level ($20K+) to high-end ($500K+) — and what drives the price
• How to vet a ghost writer: what credentials to look for and red flags to avoid
• When ghost writing is NOT the right fit — and why a book coach or developmental editor might serve you better
• The inside story on some of Kevin's most fascinating projects, including the Five Nights at Freddy's novels and the Oz Perlman mentalism bestseller

Resources mentioned:

• Kevin Anderson & Associates website: https://kawriting.com
• Reedsy: https://reedsy.com

Connect with Kevin Anderson:

Website: kawriting.com

Connect with Teddy Smith:
@teddyagsmith
Website: https://publishingperformance.com/?ref=ywm3mtc
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/publishingperformance/
Pinterest - https://nz.pinterest.com/publishingperformance/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/publishingperformanceinsta
Youtube -https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHV6ltaUB4SULkU6JEMhFSw
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] Teddy Smith: Welcome to the Publishing Informant Show, the podcast that helps self-publish authors turn their passion into a profit. Now, I'm your host Teddy Smith, and if you're serious about building a sustainable business, then you're in the right place. Every week I sit down with successful authors, industry experts, and publishing professionals who share their exact strategies they use right now to how they've grown their business, grow their readership, increase their book sales, and essentially to make a bit more money.

[00:00:29] Teddy Smith: Now, whether you're just starting out or you're looking to scale your existing publishing business, you'll walk away from every episode with actual insights you can implement immediately. Now if you are new here, it would really, really help me out. If you could subscribe either on Apple or Spotify or YouTube or wherever you are, just simply hit the subscribe button.

[00:00:45] Teddy Smith: It really helps the show 

[00:00:46] Kevin Anderson: to get more reach, which means we can get better guests for you and we can help you out in a in more ways. Alright, let's dive into this episode. 

[00:00:54] Teddy Smith: Hi everyone, and welcome to the Publish Informant Show. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Kevin Anderson, who's the CEO and the founder and the editor in chief of Kevin Anderson.

[00:01:02] Teddy Smith: Associates. Not be confused with Kevin J. Anderson, who we've already interviewed. Thank you, Kevin, for joining the show. 

[00:01:08] Kevin Anderson: Yeah, absolutely. happy, happy to join. And yeah, I'm a big fan of Kevin Anderson's in general. I've actually worked with Kevin J. Anderson on a, on a bunch of projects. He is done some writing for us and, I work with his agent, Gottlieb quite a bit as well.

[00:01:21] Kevin Anderson: yeah, always, always a pleasure to be associated with such, which Kevin Anderson's and the tennis player too, so I'm in for it. 

[00:01:29] Teddy Smith: I, I, met him once and I, someone I knew had started working for you, I think, and I was like, Hey, Kevin, someone started working for you. And he was like, you got the wrong guy.

[00:01:36] Teddy Smith: But, but yeah. So today we're gonna be talking about Kevin Anderson Associates, which is, a business that focuses on ghost writing. So I think a lot of authors, a lot of people, they want to write a book and maybe they don't have the time or they're feeling a bit stuck, and I think that's really where you come in and you help them to get over that.

[00:01:56] Teddy Smith: So why don't you give us a bit of an overview of like how Kevin Anderson works and what that process looks like and what sort of people you work with. 

[00:02:03] Kevin Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. So how we help authors is we help them anywhere they're in the, in the journey, whether they're starting out and they need a lot of help with either ghost writing or rewriting their material as they write it.

[00:02:14] Kevin Anderson: And we also work with authors that have already finished their manuscript or partway through to guide them editorially and help them finish their project and figure out the exact publishing path, that's gonna be ideal for them to, to achieve their goals. And what makes us unique in the space is when is working with us, they get to work with former publishing executives, and literary agents and bestselling writers that are all inhouse at our teams.

[00:02:41] Kevin Anderson: So it's, they're really getting the highest power of, of help that that's available in the industry. 

[00:02:47] Teddy Smith: Yeah. we, what does go when? I think there's a lot of misconceptions maybe around ghost writing and what it involves and what actually happens. what does that process look like behind the scenes?

[00:02:58] Kevin Anderson: Yeah. It's important to remember that ghost writing is, is not just writing a book based on a prompt that that's given and that it's completely detached from the author, right? Ghost writing is a very collaborative process, it, it's really about accessing what the writer wants to say and, and really uncovering their tone and their edge and their style and, and, and writing the book that's gonna be authentic to them.

[00:03:24] Kevin Anderson: It's a very close collaboration. the, our clients are typically people who their, their number one skillset is not writing. They might be really good orders. They might be, really great on stage, but when it comes to putting their thoughts into writing, they really struggle. And so their. they're, they're working with us to, to give us all of the wisdom, all the ideas, or if it's a story, all the story in, in details, and then we put it into, we've develop it into a book that's in their authentic voice.

[00:03:55] Kevin Anderson: It's really true to who they are, and, but it's very collaborative. It's, it's a lot of back and forth and it's really, it's really meant to be something that is. Still very much the authors, we're, we're detached, we're not authors, we're the writers. We're like a sophisticated pen that that's, that's, that's accessing what they really wanna say and putting it in a way that can, that can really reach readers and make sense to, to them.

[00:04:17] Kevin Anderson: And, and just connect that link between the author and the reader. 

[00:04:22] Teddy Smith: I love that you say it's not just a set of prompts. that's a really interesting way of framing it. 

[00:04:26] Kevin Anderson: Yeah, exactly. And that's important, obviously in the age of ai, it's, it's, we, we aren't meant to be an echo chamber with the, with the, with the, author either.

[00:04:38] Kevin Anderson: AI is, is very prompt driven. You're, you're, you're, it's, it's a feedback loop with yourself and it's also drawing on. on a wide range of, of content that's, that's totally detached from the author. So it lacks edge, it lacks personality, and it also lacks intuitive inter interview skills and empathy.

[00:04:58] Kevin Anderson: a big part of ghost writing is actually figuring out the story or the, the things that are making author who that are not. Known to the author, things that are underneath. And so a a, a big part of the process is like a therapy session or with a psychologist where, you're, you're really trying to dig in and, and pull something out of, out of the author that, that they didn't even really know was there and connect dots that they didn't realize, where there with their story and with their message.

[00:05:27] Kevin Anderson: And so that's something that really takes a skilled, journalistic approach or interview approach that. That can read, read the Room, that can read, the author knows when to really push or when to hold back. and also has empathy for the author and what this book project is and how it serves their goals.

[00:05:47] Kevin Anderson: and so anyway, it's one of those situations where sometimes we, we know what's, what's gonna be best for making a book Good a, a really great book that's gonna. Serve their goals better than, than what they do on their own. it's a very different process than ai, which is very, it's very much an echo chamber.

[00:06:06] Teddy Smith: Yeah, yeah. You're trying to find something new, a new angle, rather than just, with AI is working with what's gone before. it's, you're trying to find that new angle to what that person's wants to write about. It's, it's completely different, I think. 

[00:06:16] Kevin Anderson: Yeah. 

[00:06:17] Teddy Smith: who, who are the people you find that typically hire ghost writers with you?

[00:06:21] Kevin Anderson: Yeah, we, we get a wide range. we do a lot of celebrity, memoirs and celebrity, and, and also novels that, that, that they feel passionate about that we do a lot of ip. so the Five Nights of Freddy's was a big number one year kind of bestseller, and it turned into two different films that were.

[00:06:39] Kevin Anderson: combined for over 500 million at the box office, globally. So that was based on a video game. and we wrote the novels and, and a bunch of, iterations of that. So we do get clients that, that have IP that they wanna write. books around, we get a lot of business authors, so people that have really made it, that have become a billionaire, or just successful in general in their, in their practice or their profession.

[00:07:07] Kevin Anderson: And they want to share that wisdom and those guide and that guidance with, with, with, with, And then we get a lot of memoirs where it's just an incredible story that, that someone really just wants to get out there for, for a variety of reasons. sometimes it's an incredible story that is gonna be, that, that, that, that's essentially a novel that's really that.

[00:07:35] Kevin Anderson: memoirs are, memoirs are obviously very similar to novels and, and, and they're character driven and story arc driven. but, but a lot of people come to us with the memoirs for different reasons. Sometimes it's, it's, it's, there's a lesson to be learned there where it's, there's a memoir with lessons and other times it's just a really incredible story.

[00:07:53] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. when you are ghostwriting with clients, what, what's, what's that level of involvement look like between the ghostwriter and the, the clients? 

[00:08:03] Kevin Anderson: Yeah, it's really, it's a really close collaboration. So at the very beginning, we typically get a whole team together. All of our projects are done as a team.

[00:08:10] Kevin Anderson: So we'll have a writer, a project manager, an editor. All of our editors are former Big five acquisitions editors or publishing executives. We have a former literary agent that's also involved in the project to help with thinking through the, the positioning and, and the publishing strategy. And they all get together for, ideally several days in person.

[00:08:30] Kevin Anderson: they often meet at our office in London or in, in, in New York. we also have an office in la but we also can meet at their. At their home or their place of business. But typically we'll meet for a couple of days at least, just to talk through everything, the entire story, do brainstorming, figure out exactly what their goals are and, and, and how to structure the book.

[00:08:51] Kevin Anderson: In a way that's gonna, achieve them. but those first couple of days, or weeks if they wanna do it over Zoom, there is a lot of just brainstorming and figuring out what exactly we wanna do with the book. And then once we see how, where all the puzzles of the mosaic are, we try to fit 'em into a structure and into a, into an outline that, that we can then follow in terms of writing the actual book.

[00:09:16] Kevin Anderson: After that, the collaboration, Is a little less intense. we, we develop material. Do ongoing interviews, typically over Zoom, but sometimes there'll be additional site visits. But, and then the, the, the, the, the author will review the material, as it's produced and give feedback. There'll be revisions.

[00:09:36] Kevin Anderson: The editors are also reviewing and editing to ensure that it's looking good from a publishing standpoint. and you just continue that back and forth, dynamic until the project is complete. and then it goes into post, And then it goes into editing copy, and then we figure out the publishing direction.

[00:09:54] Teddy Smith: Yeah. It's basically the whole book process. 

[00:09:57] Kevin Anderson: Yeah. Exactly. And you know what we really try to set, we really try to make all the connections. So if they're, some projects we agent ourselves, we've done lots of, of lots of book deals ourselves. Although typically we like to bring in, an agent externally, bring in an ideal agent to to, to make the deal.

[00:10:13] Kevin Anderson: But we'll make those connections for certain authors if it, one project isn't really. Ideal fit for agents, then we do help them figure out traditional, or sorry, non-traditional options like hybrid publishing or self-publishing. our goal is to just really make sure that they're not, they're not on their own.

[00:10:31] Kevin Anderson: trying to figure out the whole, this very complicated world of publishing, by themself. And, we've obviously, we've done, we've done over. 7,000 books. We do about 500 a year. And so we've had a lot of experience with a lot of different publishers, a lot of different agents, a lot of different hybrid publishers, so we really ensure that they're getting the very best and then they're not getting, there's a lot of scams out there.

[00:10:52] Kevin Anderson: There's a lot of really bad actors. we, we help shelter them from that and really are their partner through the whole process and then after, 

[00:11:01] Teddy Smith: yeah, definitely. When, let's say if I wanted to come to you today and I wanted to write a book, what would those first few steps look like? 

[00:11:09] Kevin Anderson: So if first thing we would figure out is your goals.

[00:11:12] Kevin Anderson: What, what do you want from this? What, what three years down the road, what is success for you? What this book achieved for you? And it could be, it's different things for, for everyone. Sometimes it's a complete ROI, where they really need to see, they want their business to grow. They wanna have something that, that, that when someone looks at their website, they see this book and it's a best sell.

[00:11:31] Kevin Anderson: it shows that they're bestselling author that shows thought leadership and authority in their space. you, something. Sometimes the goal is that, and if that's the case, then we're gonna think and talk through a plan that's gonna achieve that goal as opposed to somebody else that might come to us that's looking to, to write a.

[00:11:50] Kevin Anderson: to write a Family Legacy piece, that's gonna be a totally different goal. We're not gonna be thinking about bestseller list, we're not gonna be thinking about, getting a, a traditional publisher on board. We're gonna be thinking more about how do we, write something that's authentic, that's gonna be, that's gonna be.

[00:12:07] Kevin Anderson: Serving their goals as a family legacy piece, and that's gonna be a totally different publisher, totally different path that, that we're gonna lead them down. but that's the first thing is just what are the goals? What, why, what's your why for writing this book? And then we, we structure a plan and a strategy around that.

[00:12:24] Kevin Anderson: and then from once, once we understand what that is and, and what the what, And we know what your timeline is. Everyone has different timelines. Some, some people, we, we write books in as, as little as, three to five months. And that could be even from, even from start until actual publishing can be that quick.

[00:12:43] Kevin Anderson: at times. Usually it's a longer process. But we're thinking about your timeline as well when we're trying to put together the whole plan. And then once we figure that out and we have an idea of, of of, of how we can execute the plan at that point, then we start scheduling, the meetings to really start brainstorming and getting, getting the book out and figuring out what the core themes are and what the, what the position of the book is.

[00:13:11] Teddy Smith: what is it very difficult when you're having these meetings and speaking to your clients? Is it very difficult to extract their voice and to make it sound like it is them speaking? Because, the best memoirs and books I've written, you can tell that that author is speaking. So what, how's that work?

[00:13:26] Kevin Anderson: Yeah, that's critical. that's what, that's one of the most important parts. The whole process is making sure that you're capturing the voice and that it really resonates and sounds like them. and, is it difficult? Yes, but that's why you're hiring a really skilled ghost writer, right?

[00:13:42] Kevin Anderson: that's why you don't just hire Uncle Jim to write your, your memoir just 'cause he had a degree in English. You know what I mean? You have to, a skilled ghost writer is someone that can really capture a voice and really be a chameleon and, and really enter inside that, that author and, and, and have the ability.

[00:13:58] Kevin Anderson: To produce their edge and their voice better than they can on their own. that's, that's really the whole, the whole, process. So yeah, that's it. It's difficult, but it's, it's what we do every day. that is the skill that a, that's one and one of the number one skills that a ghost starter needs to have is, is the ability to adapt and capture the author's voice.

[00:14:18] Kevin Anderson: Because if you don't have that, if you don't have the edge, if you don't have the authentic author's voice and the whole, the whole project is, is gonna fall apart, it's not gonna feel connected to the author. It's not gonna make sense to anyone that reads it, that knows the author. And it's also just gonna be a, there's gonna be dissonance between the voice in that book and everything else that they do after, so it's, it's really important that, that that authentic voice and that, that the edge that makes that author who they are, really comes through in the writing.

[00:14:43] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. Did you ever get pushback from your clients around, of way you've used their voice or the way you've written it? Or how, how, do you ever get any conflict there? 

[00:14:51] Kevin Anderson: Oh, sure. Yeah. and we'll always default to the, to the author, right? if they, if something's not sounding right, and sometimes it'll be like their exact words, right?

[00:14:59] Kevin Anderson: we'll, we'll, we'll put down their, their exact words on the page and they'll be like, that doesn't sound like me. 

[00:15:04] Teddy Smith: Yeah. 

[00:15:05] Kevin Anderson: but that's fine. it's, it's all good. Like we, we we're, we're all about them being happy with the results. So we, we'll change and adjust and, and, and to be fair, sometimes, I get this all the time. I'm, I'm sure I'll get this when I listen to this podcast back, I'll be like, Ooh, that doesn't sound like me. That's not what I wanted to say. it's all fair, it's really, it's really trying to, trying to get to a point where the author is really happy with what it is and it feels like them and they feel like they can connect with it.

[00:15:34] Kevin Anderson: but yeah, sure you do. You can get some pushback. what we do to make sure that we're not. Getting off the rails early, and I think this is incredible, critically important is, we have a stopping point at the first chapter. So after the outline and everything is complete, we understand the general structure.

[00:15:51] Kevin Anderson: Of course, the outline's written in pencil. we might change it as we go along, that's fine. But, but the first step is to write a chapter. it doesn't have to be the first chapter, it just has to be a significant chapter. And, we write the chapter and we keep revising it and rewriting it until the author really.

[00:16:08] Kevin Anderson: Feels great about it and it's important to do that in instead of just imagine just writing half the book or a full draft and if you didn't understand what kind of what the author was looking for with their voice, you might've just done a whole lot of work in the wrong direction. So we really make sure that we know and get sign off on them on that first chapter before we move on to any additional content.

[00:16:30] Teddy Smith: You mentioned before, I think you said three to six months of getting a book written. What, what, what that timeline, what does the timeline look like from having your first meeting to having that final draft ready to go? 

[00:16:41] Kevin Anderson: Yeah, so it can really vary. we've done some rush projects. we've done books in as, as little as, as six weeks.

[00:16:47] Kevin Anderson: but that's atypical, right? that, that's really a rush crash type of a project. usually you're looking more like eight months to a year, from the time you first meet until you actually have the final product. There's a lot of things, there's a lot of things to go through. there's, there's, there's, there's the, Although apart from just the, the author's schedule, most of our authors are very busy and they, a lot of them have less time than they realize just to do simple things like go over the work and give feedback and, and, life happens. So sometimes those, those sorts of things can just push the timeline back.

[00:17:24] Kevin Anderson: However, There's also just a lot of steps involved, not just writing the draft and getting it right, and then doing rounds of revisions because it's just normal. when you have, when you're hiring someone else to do the work, you have to expect that there is gonna be a, a great deal of revisions because the, they're not you and they're gonna make, they're gonna, they.

[00:17:41] Kevin Anderson: It's not necessarily a mistake, but they, they're gonna come up with stuff that's gonna get left off of the, it's gonna end up on the cutting room floor. 

[00:17:47] Teddy Smith: Yeah. 

[00:17:47] Kevin Anderson: So it's important to just go into it knowing that there's gonna be a lot of revisions and not to expect anything to be perfect. at, at, at, at first, at first delivery, however.

[00:17:58] Kevin Anderson: apart from the revisions in editing, we also do, we do a lot of other things too. We do beta testing, so we'll, we'll run it by, a, a beta test group that's not related. Very important, not related or knows the author in any way. so it's a completely raw and unbiased, review. sometimes we do cultural accuracy review, so if, if the project, is dealing with, a character or experiences that are really far outside of the authors, We'll have someone come through and, and, and take a look that that is from that background or experience so that they can make sure that it's accurate. we'll also do rounds of, of just line editing, even once you have a book written with a ghost writer, It, it's still gonna need some refinement, and, and you're gonna need to have someone outside that doesn't know the project that's completely detached from it.

[00:18:52] Kevin Anderson: To have a fresh set of eyes go through and review everything from beginning to end. And that line editing process is really important. So there's a bunch of different little steps that are gonna happen with, with, with, with a client's book that, that easily get to that, eight to 12 month frame.

[00:19:10] Teddy Smith: Interesting. At the, at the beginning we talked a little bit about the difference fiction and nonfiction ghost, how between the. 

[00:19:22] Kevin Anderson: Yeah. So I mean the general, the general process is fairly similar, but it's just, what you're looking at is a lot different in terms of, so, when you're structuring a book for nonfiction, and I'm talking about prescriptive nonfiction here, not like a, a, a narrative nonfiction.

[00:19:38] Teddy Smith: so you're talking about things like business books and That's 

[00:19:40] Kevin Anderson: Like a business book or something like that. Something that's related to their profession. for one, usually there's a lot of content that's already available from the client, whether it's their. their company handbook or their, or their, their blog posts or articles or, or things that they've already done related to their work, that we can access and, and, and, and draw from to start, to start framing the book already.

[00:20:08] Kevin Anderson: also the, the goals are usually much. Clear defined. It's a lot easier to write a business book because you know who your audience is. so we know exactly who and why, we're writing the book. And so we're really thinking about, what, what, when we're thinking about the, the, the table of concepts, we're thinking about the chapter headings when we're thinking about the, the thesis of the book.

[00:20:35] Kevin Anderson: what, what does, what need does this book solve? that can be all really narrowly defined, and we can, and we can target it right to the author that we're looking to reach. It's much more difficult with fiction and memoir to do that because it's, it's, it's more or less a book for everyone, right?

[00:20:51] Kevin Anderson: And there's not a clearly defined reason why we're writing it. It's not a specific need necessarily that we're clearly resolving for people. It's very easy to write a to, to, to, to narrow down a book when it's you're solving a specific problem. When it's a, when it's a novel, it becomes, it's, it's art.

[00:21:11] Kevin Anderson: this is something that we, we are appealing to, something that's beyond, just the practical. So it, it's a different approach in, in terms of, About, like, when we're just thinking about the material, what makes it, a good book? It's completely different. So in the planning stages it's a lot more, it's a lot easier and more focused and more straightforward and, with, with a prescriptive nonfiction than with, with a story driven manuscript.

[00:21:40] Kevin Anderson: Where then that case we're really looking at, bigger themes, character development, story arc. How, how can we make this all resonate and feel, and, and really connect with, with the reader on a human level. And, and it's really hard to identify exactly which readers are gonna be, that's gonna appeal to the most.

[00:21:59] Teddy Smith: Yeah. That's fascinating. Wh when cu customers usually come to you with an idea for either a fiction book or a fiction book, what, what, what level of information do you expect them to? Come to you with? Or can it literally just be like, here's my idea, let's start brainstorming. 

[00:22:13] Kevin Anderson: Yeah. It can be nothing. Yeah.

[00:22:14] Kevin Anderson: We, and we get it all the time. we, it's, it's very common for us to, for the, for the author to really have nothing started at all. And they just said, Hey, I just got this, this, this German of an idea. I'm super passionate about it. I've gotten nothing written down. I just wanna start talking and, and get it out, and it's just, I know I wanna get it out.

[00:22:33] Kevin Anderson: or, or, or they, everyone's told them, you have an amazing story. You should write a book. I would love to hear all this, all these stories. I would love to have this all in a book that I could, that could read. I think everyone's gonna love it, and they hear this over and over again and they just, they don't have anything written down.

[00:22:47] Kevin Anderson: They're not really sure which stories are gonna be the most impactful Also. People with memoir, they have so many stories and that, that we've really gotta figure out, what's the, what are the best ones to string together into this narrative. Because we can't, we can't write a 2000 page book, right?

[00:23:04] Kevin Anderson: That's not gonna, that's not gonna work. It's not gonna be marketable. we could write it by be marketable. No one's gonna wanna read it. so we gotta think through strategically, which, what part, what parts of the story connect thematically, which parts of the stories are actually really unique.

[00:23:19] Kevin Anderson: Are there some that achieve the same goal? So we should maybe drop some of these stories that are basically achieving the same, the same, same thing within the narrative. That, that process for, that that process is really thinking through how can we make a whole lot of information, sorry to get the point though.

[00:23:43] Kevin Anderson: They come with nothing and then it's really as we start, then we have them share all these stories and, and, and figure out all the details. But, authors come to us with nothing or sometimes they come to us with. With too much. We have, we, we've had authors, oh, I dunno what the record is. I know it's over four without words.

[00:24:00] Kevin Anderson: but they, they've come with just a, a, a giant to of a bible of, of material and, and it's all scattered. Sometimes it's just voice to text memos or whatever it is. And, and we've gotta take this, all this content and whittle it down into, a a, a book that's actually gonna resonate with readers.

[00:24:21] Teddy Smith: If you could describe the ideal amount of information people should bring to you, what would that look like? 

[00:24:26] Kevin Anderson: we always like, we always like to have information, coming up, but the, yeah, so it's always good to have, it's always good to have plenty of information. We can always navigate it.

[00:24:35] Kevin Anderson: Ideal amount, I don't know if there's an ideal amount, but I think that the thing that I caution people against a lot is, what you don't wanna do is spend a lot of time writing and putting words down and, and, and, and basically putting a lot of effort into developing your book. First consulting with a professional because look what, what we do get and what a lot of, and, and it is these situations where someone's already written basically the whole manuscript and then they reach out to us, say, oh, I did all this on my own.

[00:25:04] Kevin Anderson: I put this all together. And then we look at it and we realize that. It doesn't align at all with a lot of their goals or, or a really bad book, or there's just, they've gone way down the path. and if they would've just talked to us at the beginning, even momentarily, we could have set the direction right?

[00:25:23] Kevin Anderson: And saved them a lot of time and future, heavy. There's never a point that's too early to start consulting, at least with a, with a professional. and then, you always off your own, but you direction have some, some good ideas of what to do. So you're spending a lot of time, in the wrong direction.

[00:25:49] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Is, is there anything that people or your clients should not expect a ghostwriters to do? Maybe there's like expectation setting type thing. 

[00:25:59] Kevin Anderson: Yeah. Yeah. all the moral stuff, right? Like they should not expect them to, lie for them, perjure themselves, or, or the author say, they not expect us to write, racist or, or, homophobic content.

[00:26:17] Kevin Anderson: these kinds of things are, are, are a baseline. but beyond that. I mean, other than that, we really will write whatever the author wants us to. a as long, and, and where it gets where it gets tough is when an author really wants it to be one way when their goals are misaligned with what they wanna do.

[00:26:41] Kevin Anderson: So for instance, they wanna have a publishable book that's gonna appeal to agents and get a traditional publishing deal. But then they, but they don't wanna actually write a book like that. They wanna write their own version that's not gonna be appealing to a publisher or that's been done a million times, or isn't as unique or original as they think.

[00:26:59] Kevin Anderson: And that's where it gets tricky because we wanna serve their goal of what they want with the book, but at the same time, they have to understand that sometimes you're gonna have to let you know what they call it. Let go of your darlings. and you, you, you're gonna have to kill some of your darlings.

[00:27:13] Kevin Anderson: if you really wanna achieve your goal, ultimately though, we will do whatever the client wants. If they wanna write a terrible book that's not gonna sell and that's gonna just be their own pet project, we'll do that them. But we're not gonna, we're gonna let them know. We're gonna make sure their eyes are open to it and say.

[00:27:29] Kevin Anderson: Just so you know, this is probably, we'll say it in a nice way, but it might not appeal to, traditional publishers or an agent. we're happy to do it, but just wanna flag, that, that you might wanna go a different direction if you wanna optimize your chances for, success in traditional publishing.

[00:27:45] Kevin Anderson: And then they can decide well. I really just want the book to be this way. And if, if, if traditional publishing won't accept it, then you know, screw them. I'm still doing it my way. Fine. we're happy to do that for you. but we want them to have their eyes open to what, to what's realistic.

[00:28:02] Teddy Smith: We've talked a lot about sort of different types of ghostwriting, like is, is there anyone who'd say Ghost writing's not a great fit for. 

[00:28:09] Kevin Anderson: Yeah. definitely, so ghost writing is not a great fit for someone that really wants to always get their hands involved in the project and, and have them, ha and have them be the, the, the, the, the hands on the keys.

[00:28:23] Kevin Anderson: So specifically, once in a while you'll get a client where they sign up for ghost writing, but then every time you send them a draft, they're in there just rewriting everything, which is okay in some cases, but. They might wanna consider whether that they should just be writing the draft and then having a different dynamic where there's a coach or a ghost or a, not a coach, not a ghost writer, but a coach or an editor that's going alongside them.

[00:28:50] Kevin Anderson: Because if, if they really need to be hands on and they need to have that as part of the process, and every time they get a new chapter, they just can't help themselves by being like, no, no, no, no, no. I wanna do it this way. And they start, I mean, if that works for them and that really stimulates them and that, then that's fine.

[00:29:05] Kevin Anderson: But for others it's frustrating. And so in those cases, you'd be better off just having a book poach or an editor that where you're putting down the draft and then they're giving you reflective feedback and structural feedback and maybe making some edits to help you sharpen it. that that's, and we've seen that too.

[00:29:21] Kevin Anderson: And sometimes you don't know, right? Like sometimes you start out with a book coaching project and you realize, you know what? I really need to be the one writing this. Or, or sorry, you start with a ghost writing project and you realize, I really need to be the one that's writing this myself.

[00:29:34] Kevin Anderson: And then so we, we will flip it. We'll say, okay, no problem. Let's just change the working dynamic here. the goal is to just get this book done and have it be something that, that you're proud of and that, that you really resonate with. So, we'll flip the dynamic and we'll, we'll have them write the drafts and then the editor or the ghost writer will be more of a coach and more of an editor instead of actually writing the drafts from scratch.

[00:29:54] Kevin Anderson: and the reverse can be true too. That happens a lot where someone says, I just want a book coach. I can do it all myself. And then six, eight months down the road, they've basically produced nothing. And they, they're getting frustrated with their progress and they, they just say, you know what? I throw it in the towel.

[00:30:08] Kevin Anderson: I just want the ghost writer to, to, to, to develop this. And I'll just become, the editor and, and, and, and interact collaboratively that way. So it's, we can always adapt, but. But yeah, if, if you really need to be hands-on, you should consider a book coach or, or an editor instead of, instead of ghost starting probably.

[00:30:26] Teddy Smith: Alright. That's really good advice. I, I, I hadn't really considered like that. A book coach is doing a similar work to a ghost writer, but different levels of involvement. I hadn't really Right. Consider that framing force. That's really interesting way of putting it. when, when it comes to the cost of getting a book ghostwritten and who really you are targeting, how much does it cost to get a book ghost?

[00:30:47] Teddy Smith: And I'm guessing it depends on lots of factors, but what, what sort of things are we looking at? 

[00:30:52] Kevin Anderson: Yeah, there are a lot of factors. and, for, and it ranges too, what, you get what you pay for, right? and you can find, you can go on to read z or, or go, find people at, your local community college or something to write books for, for, for fairly cheap.

[00:31:12] Kevin Anderson: but typically they're not gonna have much in terms of, of credibility. They're not gonna have, anytime you're hiring a writer at least. My, my advice is always make sure that they've actually written books and ideally ones that have not only been published, they don't necessarily need to be traditionally published, because that is a pretty high bar for, and, and it's also not the bar that everybody has for their book.

[00:31:33] Kevin Anderson: they might not really care about getting their book traditionally published. So why? So you don't necessarily need to have an author or ghostwriter should say, that's been traditionally published, because that is gonna, that's gonna put your price up quite a bit. but. You should be hiring somebody that you can see credits, like there are actual credits of, of projects they've done, authors they've worked at that you can verify and then you can see the work and, and see the quality of it.

[00:31:59] Kevin Anderson: And of course, if it has been traditionally published or if it's hit bestseller list, then this is a real marker of a ghost writer that knows what they're doing and, and, and can, and can work with you, and get the job done. You'll hear a ton of horror stories of people hiring, writers paying up front, and then they disappear.

[00:32:17] Kevin Anderson: Or they just, they, they, they're not keeping on time with, with the, with the progress milestones. or they're just delivering really shoddy content or AI developed slot. and so, that's, but you're talking about price, Usually a minimum ghost riding fee for a ghost writer that knows what they're doing is gonna be around $20,000 or so, and then it goes up from there very quickly.

[00:32:42] Kevin Anderson: We don't offer any services that low. I'm just telling you that if you're looking for just somebody that could probably do the job and won't, won't, screw you on the deal, you can find them out there. But usually somebody who has any kind of experience is gonna be in that price range. our services are usually starting at 50,000 and then it goes up from there.

[00:33:01] Kevin Anderson: And then we, we've had projects that are half a million and more. Of course, when you're looking at, a half a million dollar ghost rider, You're typically getting someone who's a New York Times bestselling writer has multiple credits that are, that are publicly known, and they have a long track record of success.

[00:33:20] Kevin Anderson: and that's, that's gonna drive the market up for, for those ghost writers. j Monger is looking at a million plus, for, for working with clients. And you've done Andrea Agassi's memoir and, and, and spare, you can drive a really high price and, and he is, and he is worth it.

[00:33:41] Kevin Anderson: So anyway, so the range is really wide. It really is. You get what you pay for. Typically, if you want a writer that has good publishing credits, maybe hit a couple best seller lists or a New York Times list with some of their clients. You, you're gonna be in the six figures, pretty quickly. 

[00:34:00] Teddy Smith: And does that sort, that price range, that sort the same between like memoirs, business books, novels?

[00:34:05] Teddy Smith: It, it, it's, it's more about like the quality, the advice you're hiring rather than the, like the type of project. It's, 

[00:34:11] Kevin Anderson: yeah. I mean there's some variation. like for instance, like a 40,000 word, straightforward business book, sometimes that that could be dramatically less. For an equal, for, for an equally qualified writer, then a, 150,000 word novel, right?

[00:34:29] Kevin Anderson: That, that, that's gonna require, not only is it longer, but it's a lot less straightforward to write a novel than, a business book if it's all been put together. So it's all based on what, what is, what is it that we're working with here? Also, sometimes people will have a manuscript that they've fully fleshed out and all the characters and the ideas are pretty well developed, but they just need a writer to turn that into a finished novel.

[00:34:54] Kevin Anderson: that's gonna be a, that's gonna be a cheaper process than. Where they say, oh, I have a German of an idea, but that's all I've got. Let's write a book. And then you've gotta come up with all the characters, all of the plot twists, everything is gonna come up from, from nothing. That's gonna be a lot more, because the interview time is gonna be extensively more for that project than something that's already fully fleshed out and put together, even if it does require original writing, to do so like for instance, I got a book right here, This book here, I'll give you two examples. This book is from the, it's from the O, the office, the show. The office, there's one in the uk, one in the us. Steve Corral is the, is the star of one in the us. This was a New York Times bestseller that we, that we worked with them on. They came with a ton of material.

[00:35:41] Kevin Anderson: It was an oral history of the office that was based on a lot of these podcasts that, that. That, that, that, that, Brian Bob Garner had been doing. and so he's one of the actors on, on the show, and so they had a ton of content and we just had to put it together and, and write it into a cohesive narrative.

[00:35:59] Kevin Anderson: This was a much less expensive project, than say a novel. Let's see if I got one here. I've got a couple. That's a good one though. actually, you know what? Yeah, so we'll, we'll pause on that, but I don't see one That's a really good, i, a really good, sense, but actually, how about this one?

[00:36:23] Kevin Anderson: So he was a memoir, a great fit. It's from, it's from the, the longtime CEO of Kelvin Klein, the clothing company. This is one that we worked on, really extensively. This was a lot more expensive, because it was a memoir. He had nothing written, nothing developed, we had to do. We went down to Florida, did extensive interviews with him, and.

[00:36:46] Kevin Anderson: It, it, it was a, a very long process to get all of the content developed and, and out there, so that kind of project just takes a lot longer, and so you're gonna get a higher price point for something like that. 

[00:36:57] Teddy Smith: Yeah. So if you could describe your, ideal clients, people you'd be looking to work with, what, what would they look like?

[00:37:04] Kevin Anderson: they're passionate about their book. They know why they wanna write a book. they're, they understand the value of a professional and to trust the professional, to do a really great job and to know what they're doing. and, to be collaborative, someone, someone that's, we can, we can work very hands off.

[00:37:24] Kevin Anderson: we've had projects where they just give us, give us. Idea and go, and then we come back with it, But that's not ideal. usually we want someone that can really work with us and have that book really resonate with them and be their own voice and, and, and so yeah. That, that's, that's the ideal client.

[00:37:40] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Perfect. so yeah, what, this has been absolutely fascinating. I, you, I I've never really, I don't think I knew anywhere near as much about Ghost Rising as I do now. It's, it's such much more involved process than I considered. 'cause a lot of the people I work with, they're self-published and so it's, it's, they're doing their own thing.

[00:37:57] Teddy Smith: So interesting to see that whole like other side to it, really go in deep with the client and, see how that works. what, what are the, what, what are the most interesting or surprising projects you've worked on? 

[00:38:09] Kevin Anderson: that, that I'm allowed to talk about? 

[00:38:10] Teddy Smith: You're allowed to talk about. 

[00:38:11] Kevin Anderson: Yeah. yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot that I'm not allowed to talk about.

[00:38:14] Kevin Anderson: Lemme see. Let's see. One, here's an interesting one. I'm not sure if you guys have seen these. This guy os perman. He is. there you go. We can see it. This was a New York Times bestseller. it's been on the list of a bunch of, a bunch of weeks and months, on multiple lists on the New York Times. os Pearlman is a magician.

[00:38:34] Kevin Anderson: and he, I is, it's also a, a, an endurance athlete. But, this is one of the most interesting projects that we worked with. It was a very, it was very much a collaboration. I wouldn't necessarily call it a ghost writing project, but, but very, and, and he's an ideal client. Super involved. He would, he, he would, he would, we would talk to him regularly.

[00:38:52] Kevin Anderson: He would record himself as he was jogging. He would just, he would jog, he jogs for I don't even, he does like double marathons in a single day kind of a thing. And, and he'll, and he'll just as he's jogging, he'll just talk, talk out all of his ideas on his book. But what made it so interesting is, is his, his he is, he is, he's a magician, right?

[00:39:14] Kevin Anderson: he is a mentalist, so he is basically a mind reader, but it's all, it's all a trick. It's not, he doesn't. Really, he, he doesn't try to tell you that he is actually literally reading your mind like a fortune teller or something like that. but, but he can make it seem like it because you know of what, what he's able to do.

[00:39:30] Kevin Anderson: The book is about how. You know how to read a room, how, how to make sure you are presenting how to, how to figure out the best way to put yourself in an advantage situation, where you can essentially read people's minds, but also be aware of what you're giving off and, and hack into your own brain, to help you to achieve, things, whether it's in business or in life.

[00:39:52] Kevin Anderson: but anyway, but the, the, what, what made it so fun and surprising is that. When we pitched it to publishers, we went to Penguin and, and, and Random House and, sorry, we went to, sorry, biking at Random House. We went to, we went to Harper and did a bunch of meetings and at the publishing meetings, the whole meeting was him, was his act basically.

[00:40:13] Kevin Anderson: And he would come in and he would. he would, he would, he would be this total group of strangers. and he would be able to forecast exactly where they went to vacation their first time, and who they went to vacation with. Just intuit from this random person that he just met then. but anyway, so it was, it was amazing to see him do this act in these publishing meetings and the whole, he, he just blew them away completely.

[00:40:38] Kevin Anderson: and, yeah. So he, and he got, yeah, he got some, he got a huge. offer from, from, from biking. And the, and the book's been a, a big success since. but yeah, that, that, that's one of, been one of the fun ones that we worked on recently. a lot, we get a lot of. Business related books, a lot of, IP stuff.

[00:40:56] Kevin Anderson: But this one was a real kind of unique project where, where the, where you could see 'em in, in action with, with the, as part of the, the, the, the, the book publishing process. 

[00:41:08] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Incredible. I ran an eight K yesterday, so I'm the same as him. 

[00:41:12] Kevin Anderson: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Double marathon.

[00:41:15] Kevin Anderson: I think that's the same. I'm not sure about the metric versus standard conversion, but I'm sure that's, that's close. 

[00:41:20] Teddy Smith: Yeah. It's almost exactly the same. Yeah. I'll email you after, just tell you how it works. get, thank you so much. Coming on. if people wanna get in touch with you, what, and like how should they do that?

[00:41:32] Teddy Smith: And also what should they, what should they bring to that meeting? what should they bring to that email? 

[00:41:40] Kevin Anderson: I, I, I think just honesty about where they're at and what they want, and, and we'll help them figure out what the best path for them. And if, and if it's not with us, we'll we'll guide them to where, the best solution might be.

[00:41:53] Kevin Anderson: 'cause we're not for everybody, we're, we're more of a white glove, high end service. But, but we're always happy to talk with anybody and just help them get on the right path and, and figure out what's gonna be best for them and their, and their publishing needs. But yeah, you don't have to bring anything to the call, just, just.

[00:42:07] Kevin Anderson: Just a curiosity and, and, and we can talk through all the different ideas and options and, and, and get you on the right path. 

[00:42:13] Teddy Smith: Great. And if people wanna get in touch, where's the best place to do that? 

[00:42:17] Kevin Anderson: You can go to our website. It's ka writing.com, so K-A-W-R-I-T-I-N g.com. and you can, there's an easy way to contact us there.

[00:42:28] Kevin Anderson: We're very phone friendly. You're not gonna get put into an AI bot or, or, or, or, or call and not be able to reach somebody. someone that knows what they're doing. Will, will, will pick up and be able to talk you through everything and, and get you on the right path. 

[00:42:44] Teddy Smith: Brilliant. Thanks so much for coming on.

[00:42:46] Teddy Smith: It's been great to chat and, we'll speak here soon. 

[00:42:48] Kevin Anderson: All right. Thank you. Appreciate it. 

[00:42:51] Teddy Smith: Thank you so much for tuning into the Publishing Informant Show. I really hope you found today's episode inspiring. I absolutely love chatting to authors, writers, and people in the publishing world. Now, just before we wrap up, I want to tell you about our publishing performance Starter Pack.

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