The Publishing Performance Show

Michael Stockham - How to Write Legal Thrillers When You Actually Know the Law

• Teddy Smith • Episode 105

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Michael Stockham is a trial attorney and bestselling author who has successfully built a self-publishing business around his legal thriller series. Starting with a creative writing background before becoming what he calls an "accidental lawyer," Michael brings authentic courtroom detail to his novels through his 25+ years of trial experience. His debut novel "Confessions of an Accidental Lawyer" has garnered over 3,500 reviews and multiple awards, leading to his Jake Fox legal thriller series. Michael approaches his writing career as a business venture, developing systematic processes for planning, writing, and marketing his books while maintaining his full-time legal practice. He's also actively pursuing media adaptation opportunities, pitching his nine-book series concept at film festivals.


In this episode:

  • How his background as a trial attorney informs his legal thriller writing
  • The journey from creative writing degrees to accidental lawyer to novelist
  • Building a systematic approach to writing with detailed chapter outlines
  • Using story structure principles from Save the Cat and Hero's Journey
  • The importance of authentic detail in courtroom and technical scenes
  • Marketing strategies including BookBub feature deals and award submissions
  • Working with book coach Aurora Winter for creative collaboration
  • Planning a nine-book series as three interconnected trilogies
  • Self-publishing through Whistling Pigs Press with freelance contractors
  • Pitching book-to-TV adaptations at the Banff World Media Festival
  • Building author business systems for long-term sustainability
  • Balancing full-time legal career with consistent writing schedule


Resources mentioned:

  • BookBub: https://www.bookbub.com/
  • Authors AI: https://authors.ai/
  • Save the Cat writing methodology: https://savethecat.com/
  • Story Grid: https://storygrid.com/
  • Amazon Kindle Direct Publishing: https://kdp.amazon.com/
  • Whistling Pigs Press: https://whistlepigpress.com/


Book Recommendations:

  • Save the Cat Writes a Novel: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0399579745?&linkCode=ll1&tag=pubperf-20&linkId=400c65572fa1761b41f901ed6233057c&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl


Connect with Michael Stockham:

  • Publisher: https://whistlepigpress.com/
  • Series: Jake Fox legal thrillers: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CQQFZVJJ?&linkCode=ll1&tag=pubperf-20&linkId=400c65572fa1761b41f901ed6233057c&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl
  • Standalone: Confessions of an Accidental Lawyer: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B5YDHHCC?&linkCode=ll1&tag=pubperf-20&linkId=400c65572fa1761b41f901ed6233057c&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl


Connect with Teddy Smith:

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[00:00:00] Teddy Smith: Hi everyone, and welcome to the Publishing Performance Show. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Michael Stockham, who is a trial attorney and a more importantly, a bestselling author. So welcome to the show, Michael. 

[00:00:15] Michael Stockham: It's my blessing to be on Teddy. Thank you for having me all the way across the pond. It's great to.

[00:00:21] That's one of the best things 

[00:00:22] Teddy Smith: about the show. I love speaking to people from all over the world. It's amazing. Yeah. Now, as I just mentioned in your intro, your background is as an attorney for big businesses, and you mentioned trial attorney as well. So how has that background in the law affected your, the way you write your books?

[00:00:39] Michael Stockham: So it's been paramount and I think it's been vice versa. And let me explain that statement. So the ability or the love of telling a story has been. Absolutely critical to being a trial lawyer and advocate for clients and putting forward their best arguments and stories because everything in in the law is really a story as your story.

[00:01:03] More believable than the other person and the, pressure or the crucible of trial law in order to get facts, be precise, communicate and communicate a message has really sort of informed my writing style over time. And I can explain a little bit more of that, but they're really wedded and some of that comes outta my background and how I actually got to this position today.

[00:01:26] I. 

[00:01:27] Teddy Smith: W how did, 'cause you've, you are obviously quite a successful lawyer, I dunno much about your practice, but you, how did you get into wanting to become a writer as well as being a lawyer? Because it sounds like you've got quite a lot going on in Mongo. 

[00:01:39] Michael Stockham: Yeah, it's a busy, it's a busy life, so I'm, what I've always dubbed sort of an accidental lawyer.

[00:01:46] I started off, I started off my, my first degree was from the University of New Mexico in writing poetry out of the creative writing department. Uh, I got a second degree after a while, wandering in the woods, being a fly fishing guide doing, uh, short stories out of Texas a and m University. And then I spent a few years.

[00:02:06] Further wandering around being a dishwasher, a Mason's apprentice, medical sales, things like that. And finally decided that maybe I wanted to, to try to earn a living instead of just scraping by. So I applied to and went to Cornell Law School, and that, at that point, about 30 years of age, is when I started my legal career.

[00:02:26] Teddy Smith: Right. Okay. And 'cause your first book was Confessions of an Accidental Lawyer. So was this kind of like a, a bit of a biography then by the sounds of it? 

[00:02:36] Michael Stockham: Little bit. So it's inspired by True Events. So the title is accidental Lawyer is definitely something that I've sort of lived by, in my own life.

[00:02:45] But it's a, a dual thread. It's got two plot lines that run through it. One is related to a civil rights trial that I did as a very young attorney. And the other one is inspired by events, with, uh, my wife and I trying to have our, our second child after some disastrous results with, with, with the delivery of our first.

[00:03:04] So it's really sort of an interwoven narrative that's inspired by true events. It's not actual events 'cause. You wanna be very careful with that. But yes, confessions of an accidental lawyer is, it's not a memoir, but it does have, parts of my life that people will recognize. 

[00:03:23] Teddy Smith: So when you wrote this book, I mean, so one of the first things I noticed when I was researching your background, you wrote this book and it came out in 2022, but already, so in the last few years, you've already got three and a half odd thousand reviews on Amazon just alone.

[00:03:36] So. When you launched that book, what, what did you do in order to really get the book out into as many places as possible so that you could get that immediate success? 

[00:03:44] Michael Stockham: Well, we worked, I think everybody really wants to believe I. That you write a book and put it out in the universe and then your, your fan base just shows up.

[00:03:53] Teddy Smith: Yeah. 

[00:03:54] Michael Stockham: It's, that's kind of a myth. The fact of it is there's a lot of hard work in the background, a lot of marketing and published, a lot of, effort, social media wise, submitting it for awards to see if those, those. Judging bodies find the work worthy of an award, et cetera. We were lucky enough to have about a dozen awards 

[00:04:13] Teddy Smith: Yeah.

[00:04:13] Michael Stockham: Given to confessions of an accidental lawyer. And so it, it has been process, consistent process that I think has brought the success for that particular book. And the follow on, novel I wrote, called Cheek Fox Ties that Blind and it's the repetition. Sort of scheduling, repetition and constant, feeding of the marketing beast, if you will, that that actually helps.

[00:04:41] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Were there any particular marketing strategies you used which you think really did help turn the dial? 

[00:04:48] Michael Stockham: One that's really been very effective for us is, working through BookBub. Okay. And, and resubmitting Being very consistent in trying to submit for BookBub feature deals. Those are incredible email lists to be a part of, and you can see a dramatic spike in sales, especially on Kindle unlimited.

[00:05:10] Teddy Smith: Yep. 

[00:05:11] Michael Stockham: Through BookBub and uh, it's featured deal program. 

[00:05:14] Teddy Smith: Yeah, I one, one of the things that I think a lot of people speak about is when you do release that book for free at first, so having that free promotion period is a really good opportunity to just get the book in front of as many people as possible.

[00:05:25] Do you think that was where you got a lot of your reviews from? 

[00:05:30] Michael Stockham: Yes and no. So a number of reviews. I think we were probably close to a thousand before our first, or maybe 1500 before our first, feature deal. And some of that just came from advertising directly on Amazon or trying to do, some more direct promotion of the book itself on some of the platforms that can be, you have to be very careful that can accidentally become kind of expensive.

[00:05:55] Yeah, if you're not watching it, but the number of page reads and the number of reviews and other things that are coming in, a lot of those are coming off of the, the featured deal and people being able to interact with it. And some of 'em are coming off direct orders and sales. We can, we can see that, just, especially even with Amazon verified purchases, et cetera.

[00:06:18] So. 

[00:06:18] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Nice. Now with the, both the books, so you've got The Confessions of the Accidental Lawyer, then you've got the series of the Jake Fox book series. Now, especially the Jake Fox series, they're kind of, they're more like legal thrillers. You know, I, I've seen you compared to John Grisham, which is must be really exciting to hear, but how did you structure those books?

[00:06:38] Did you follow a particular process when you were structuring them to make sure that they were, you know, they were as good as they could be? 

[00:06:45] Michael Stockham: Sure. So the series is something a little bit different project. The Confessions of an Accidental Lawyer came about by essentially writing two stories and then deciding can we put it on one chronological spine and interweave them to make a novel.

[00:07:00] So that was a different creative process. On the Jake Fox series we've been working on, refining, because the project is nine books. I've thought about setting it up essentially as three different trilogies. So that you have three large character arcs, but you don't have to carry the, the whole story for nine books.

[00:07:18] You know, you can sort of, if you need to, relax after three 'cause it is a big project. But setting those up and figuring out periods to put schedules in, systems in so. For the second book, which we're currently working on, we put together an extensive outline, very extensive outline, so that we can know where we're going for all 65 chapters, et cetera.

[00:07:43] And so we're looking, I. We're looking at building through the project as many systems and, and schedules as we can to try to make it creative, but also productive. 

[00:07:57] Teddy Smith: Yeah. This is the stuff that my listeners love to hear about, the real technical details about, like where the, how you write your outlines and things like that.

[00:08:06] So what does your outline look like? Because I've seen a few outlines. Some people do it really differently. They literally just write bullet points. Some people have really comprehensive spreadsheets. What does your outline look like? 

[00:08:19] Michael Stockham: So let me compare and contrast the first and second book. The first book, the outline was relatively just bullet points, 64 bullet points of what might happen in the chapter or a general direction.

[00:08:32] And to me that ultimately ended up, when we look back at the process, that ended up with a lot of rewriting. Because as you sit down with a blank page every day, maybe the book takes a different turn and then you have to go back and try to figure out where you're going. So for book number two, I decided to do a much more comprehensive outline, and I really do have somewhat of a spreadsheet or a table, each chapter's about a paragraph describing what's gonna happen, but then I start working through some of the other.

[00:09:05] Components just in story theory. So for example, there are columns that relate to the Hero's journey or you know, books like Save the Cat. Just trying to make sure that from a technical standpoint, we're trying to follow a. Narrative theory to a way that people understand would be a novel, if that makes sense.

[00:09:28] Teddy Smith: Yeah, of course. So you've, so you've taken the books, like the structure of books like From Save the Cat, and you are really applying those concepts to the spreadsheet that you've created. 

[00:09:38] Michael Stockham: Absolutely correct, and maybe not all the columns are filled out or all the cells are filled out, but for each chapter we've, we've tried to think through different concepts, either, like I said, hero's journey, story grid, save the cat, et cetera.

[00:09:54] And we also use, I think it's author ai. One of the writing tools, yes, I've actually fed the text of those cells. The story, it's the, the outline itself into that to just double check that the outline has a story. Heartbeat has a novel, heartbeat has an arc. It's not perfect, but it's, it creates great hope that at least what you put together in an outline is gonna work and hold together as a novel.

[00:10:19] Teddy Smith: Yeah, de I, I interviewed the people from author AI on the podcast when I met them, and they're really, really cool guys. So definitely at all you can check out. so have you ever seen the outline that JK Rowling wrote about for Harry Potter, where you've got the different chapters and the different, how it affects the overall story?

[00:10:35] It sounds like you followed something almost exactly the same as what she did. 

[00:10:38] Michael Stockham: It's, it's somewhat like that I found, just Googling around and playing on the internet. There was I, I ran across one of James Patterson's outlines. Okay. And then I looked at some other outlines out there just to see where it was.

[00:10:51] And I just, I gravitated toward a more developed paragraph outline, only because when you set up the system of trying to write one chapter a day, and I tried to do, when possible with my job one 1,250 word, chapter and warning. 

[00:11:08] Teddy Smith: Yep. 

[00:11:08] Michael Stockham: So when you try to take things in little bites. When you have a paragraph that describes what's supposed to happen in the next four or five pages, it makes it much easier to get past that initial impulse and inertia of a white page.

[00:11:24] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Okay. So you, so when you've, when you are doing that structuring, you write out what you are, think you're going to be writing about in the next few pages before you've even written that part. 

[00:11:34] Michael Stockham: Absolutely. So I know what is gonna be coming in the next five or 10 chapters. I know where. Each act ends. I know, generally how many words we're gonna be at after the end of each chapter.

[00:11:46] So I've tried to make it as systematic as possible without taking out the fluidity and creativity of actually, writing the book. 

[00:11:54] Teddy Smith: Yeah, I love that. I know a lot of writers find this sort of systems and things like that quite constrictive. but for me, I come from a business background. It is much more interesting for me to have it all.

[00:12:03] Mapped out exactly how you want it to go so you can really start executing on it rather than just sitting down and being like, oh, what am I gonna write today? 

[00:12:11] Michael Stockham: A hundred percent. And it goes back to the old adage of, you know, how do you eat an elephant One, one spoonful at a time. Yeah. So when you make tiny things, when you make it ability, when you give yourself the ability to be successful in small increments, you can make big projects happen.

[00:12:29] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. Now one of the positive reviews that I see come up quite a lot about your books is about the, attention to detail, especially in things like the courtroom scenes and uh, the legal parts to it. Now, obviously this is your background, but how important was it to you to get those really fine details in there to make it as realistic as possible?

[00:12:49] Michael Stockham: Very important, partly because when you're well, some of it's professional pride, uh, in being a trial lawyer, right? You wanna make sure that you want that if another lawyer reads the book, that it's as close to their experience as possible. That you're not just blowing through rules of civil procedure or other stuff that, that can be easily criticized.

[00:13:10] So you try to make that ex extremely precise. There's a difference also between overloading with detail and paying attention to specific details. Some or a few perfect details that are absolutely correct can really bring a scene to life. You don't have to have a litany of, you know, two or three paragraphs of every precise deal detail.

[00:13:36] You want to give a, you wanna give the reader the ability to understand. What's going on that it's correct and give them that flash of, of realism through detail. 

[00:13:48] Teddy Smith: Yeah. One of the things I find when I'm seeing these, like really big ascensions detail things inside books is that I end up stopping reading so I can look on Wikipedia, what it is, this thing that's, and I think that's always a good sign that a book is doing the right thing for me.

[00:14:03] That you are wanting to research more into what the guy's talking about. 

[00:14:07] Michael Stockham: Absolutely. Yeah. Detail is very important. You see it in historical fiction and others, people that really pay attention to getting it right. Yeah. I think it benefits their writing because it brings the scene to life, or if it's related to a character, it brings the character to life, and characters are really the core of.

[00:14:24] Of, of great writing, in my opinion. 

[00:14:27] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Now with your books, there must be some parts where you needed to do some of that research to in order to bring that same level of attention to detail that you bring to the legal scenes, to the other parts of the book, which aren't necessarily in the court. So how did you approach that research into those different areas?

[00:14:43] It 

[00:14:44] Michael Stockham: started with just basic internet research. 

[00:14:47] Teddy Smith: Yeah. 

[00:14:47] Michael Stockham: But then if necessary, you know, in for things that if they're medical or emergency situations or something else that's detailed, you can dive into articles. It's not just enough to go to Wikipedia and pick it up. Sometimes you have to go read an actual medical.

[00:15:03] Journal or, or something else like that. For example, on a gunshot wound, how it actually affects the body, where it goes, what's possible, what's not, how long it takes to heal. All those things are available. You just have to dig a little bit deeper. 

[00:15:16] Teddy Smith: Yeah, I did, I interviewed, uh, Jamie Davis, who's one of the, found, one of the managers of Author Nation on this podcast, and he, he used to be a nurse and so he said exactly the same thing, that he was able to add that medical detail in there that other people couldn't have.

[00:15:31] So. I think you're right. Getting that research in is really important to making the the world feel real. 

[00:15:37] Michael Stockham: Yeah, a hundred percent. And you wanna make sure that you're trying to make it magic and not a textbook. 

[00:15:42] Teddy Smith: Yeah, for sure. So 

[00:15:43] Michael Stockham: there is a balancing act there. 

[00:15:45] Teddy Smith: Now before we came on, uh, we were chatting about someone who we both know who's a aurora winter.

[00:15:50] So she's a, a book coach and she also helps people with lots of marketing and lots of aspects to making their book as successful as possible. Now, could you tell me what it's been like working with a book coach and how that's helped you to get your book to where it is today, or your series where it's today?

[00:16:07] Michael Stockham: Absolutely happy to. I think it's always good to have, whether it's a coach or great friend or somebody, it's good to have a sounding board. 

[00:16:15] Teddy Smith: Yeah. 

[00:16:15] Michael Stockham: Uh, Aurora's been a fantastic sounding board. She has a great background in a number of different industries and, education components, and so she's someone that.

[00:16:25] One I trust, which I think is great. Two who can be brutally honest, which is absolutely essential. and then somebody that, that helps. The creative process. So when we're talking, for example, on the outline and thinking about where it goes and how the story arc works and what characters should be doing in a scene, it's always nice to have somebody to bounce those ideas off of.

[00:16:49] And so from a creative component, she's been absolutely essential. And actually over the past few years has become quite a close friend. 

[00:16:57] Teddy Smith: Yeah. That is amazing. She's a really interesting person to interview on the show. She's one, one of my favorite guests actually. But, so one, when you were, um, when you were working with her, so what, just picking up on a couple of things you said then you mentioned about like presenting the outline to her and getting feedback on that.

[00:17:13] What, what would those conversations look like? 

[00:17:16] Michael Stockham: So we generally have, regular calls by Zoom and they're really sort of collaborative. Not, I mean, they're really, curious is a good word to use. Why, why this? Why that? Why are you baking? Why do you think this would be better? Or, or how? Maybe this would work for the the book.

[00:17:37] So they're very curious. They're very collaborative and very supportive. I think if you're gonna work with a coach, you may have to search around for one, but you need to find somebody that you're comfortable with and that you trust, especially to give you honest feedback. 

[00:17:54] Teddy Smith: And it's probably time to leave your ego at the door a little bit as well.

[00:17:58] Michael Stockham: Yeah, I mean, it's not so much ego as. You know, none of this process of writing a book is gonna be perfect. anybody that has a book on Amazon knows that there are always a few reviews that are, are brutal. everybody can be a critic. So to a certain extent, you gotta check your ego at the door and just try to do your best.

[00:18:18] And, and if you do that, I think your best will be. Good enough people willing. if you pay attention to the craft and you really want to get your story out, I think that's gonna be enough for a large part of the audience and that can make you a success. 

[00:18:32] Teddy Smith: That's really good advice. Going back to one of the things you said at the beginning, and I wanted to ask you a question at the time, but I had some other things, the conversation went off in a different way, so we, we changed it, but, you were talking about making your book the Jake Fox series into like a set of three trilogies.

[00:18:46] So in your head, do you have an idea of like where they're all gonna go at one point? Did you have a, do you, did you, are you writing this with an end in mind or are you just writing each trilogy as they come? 

[00:18:57] Michael Stockham: So I do have a general concept of what each. Trilogy would be about and sort of eras, if you will, within the, the concept.

[00:19:07] And I think I have somewhat of an in mind, in game in mind by the ninth book where these characters will be, it's, the reason I broke it into three is it's, it is quite daunting to think of just keeping something going for nine books. 

[00:19:22] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. 

[00:19:24] Michael Stockham: Conceptually. I mean, it may be, they may be. Not trilogies, but ultimately it, it makes it easier to bite off.

[00:19:31] Conceptually, coming up with, let's keep these characters, this storyline, this, this plot theme alive for three books. And that does two things. One is it allows you to play with characters and sub characters for longer than just one book. So you don't have to write, wrap it up in just one novel. but two, it makes it digestible from a.

[00:19:56] Intellectual standpoint from your brain that it's, it's a big project, but it's not enormous. Whereas I think nine full books just conceptually would be sort of, overwhelming. 

[00:20:07] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. I can, I can see how that'd be, you know, you gotta think about this as a whole. I. Thinking about it as 10 books must be really daunting.

[00:20:15] 'cause you've got all these, you know how, however long book each book is 90,000 words times 10. You've got, you got, you're getting on from a million words. You've got to write before you've, that you've got it all in your head. So I can see how breaking it down makes quite a big difference. 

[00:20:26] Michael Stockham: Yes. Sometimes in the creative process, just conceptually being able to take things in small bites allows for writer's block inertia, other things to disappear so that you can just take it.

[00:20:38] One day at a time. 

[00:20:40] Teddy Smith: What's your plan with releasing these books? Do you have a timeframe in mind for writing and releasing each book? 

[00:20:46] Michael Stockham: We do and, um, no later than, you know, one a year. We're trying to, like I said, look, the, at the systems we put together, how we're producing them, uh, because it's a self-published effort, et cetera, with contractors helping with different components of it.

[00:21:02] So as we get better with the system, we'd like to go from 12 months to nine months. 

[00:21:06] Teddy Smith: Yeah, 

[00:21:07] Michael Stockham: ultimately it would be nice to publish one every six months, but we'll see. I'm still a pretty active trial attorney and litigator, so I've got a full profession going on, so we, we try to be realistic in the whole process.

[00:21:21] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. Now, when you were talking about writing a whole series of books, it, when we were speaking before the show, you were talking about how you had an aim to get it out to the wider world in different types of media. So what was your plan with that? 

[00:21:35] Michael Stockham: Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things I, I believe is, especially when you look at modern media, the streaming services, et cetera, that is the most successful shows running around right now are dedicated almost all to characters.

[00:21:51] They have great plot lines, they're, they have a lot of drama, but it's really the characters that drive people to watch. So, thinking of getting into other media. The core component has to be the characters. You have to make your characters alive. So that means a dedication to dialogue, to personalities, to making each character unique.

[00:22:12] And then from there, we're actively trying to, to work on marketing it. We'll be at the Banff World Media Festival in Banff. Canada this summer, again, for our second year, basically pitching the idea of these nine books could be a series, and now that we'll have a second book well under production, by the time we get there, we'll be able to demonstrate that the the process is working and that these could actually be a long-term project.

[00:22:39] Teddy Smith: So what, what, when you go to the Ban World Media Festival, what does that pitching process look like? Do you, give, tell, tell me what a day at the festival looks like for you. 

[00:22:47] Michael Stockham: It's pretty awesome. besides being in one of the most beautiful places on the planet, it is there are many different components of it that you can go.

[00:22:54] I. Pitch at. So there are small meetings that are set up by lottery, which is literally an eight minute pitch to a studio and you can be awarded one or two of those on the, on the lottery system. A lot of it's networking. There's just hundreds of of people, the be all those who are. The top of the top in the, in the Canadian film world, they're there.

[00:23:18] So there's opportunities to visit over drinks or coffee or bump into somebody in the hallway. So some of it's just business networking. Some of it's paying attention to the pitching process. And I think it's important also to just be prepared. We take prepared materials, we're gonna go so that it's not just an off the cuff pitch when you run into somebody.

[00:23:39] Teddy Smith: Right. And so what were you hoping to pitch for your show? Are you just going there an open mind, or are you trying to get it into a particular type of medium? 

[00:23:48] Michael Stockham: Well, I think. Setup is nine books, um, with three different trilogies essentially, but setup is nine books. It would, it would fit somewhat closely to a series on one of the streaming services with each book being a season.

[00:24:02] Teddy Smith: Yeah. 

[00:24:03] Michael Stockham: And so we sort of put it out that way as, as something that could be digested by a studio. Bit by bit. And then also something that if it was successful on one season, could have a much longer, productive and, and commercially viable arc. 

[00:24:21] Teddy Smith: Yeah. And when, so when you were writing these books, did you have this end game in mind whilst you were writing them?

[00:24:26] And, and how did that affect the way you wrote the books? 

[00:24:30] Michael Stockham: Not sure we had. The end game in mind when I first started on the nine, the nine book series, but it seemed like a natural, Augmentation to the project. And then it's also drives from a creative process, like I said, the dedication to character and the, the dedication to dialogue.

[00:24:49] So a lot of my, the, the fir these novels have a lot of dialogue in them. Some of the, the chapters have, I would say, you know, 65% of the chapter is actually dialogue itself. So trying to make them come alive through the characters in their speech is one of the ways to try to drive, I think that media marketing arm.

[00:25:08] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. Have you, when you've gone to present this, have you worked with anyone to try and build that pitch together or is it just something that you've already known roughly what you want outta it? 

[00:25:18] Michael Stockham: No, no. I work with Aurora on it to put together a one sheet. Uh, we work through different graphic designers and whatnot to put it in a, in a commercial commercially sexy, media, the one that goes, we take the books. Um, and then a lot of it is just the ability to visit with people and connect on a one-on-one basis and try to explain to 'em what your vision for the project is and, um, how it can be benefit them and what you can bring to the project so that it's not just you asking for them to do something, it's you're delivering something that's helpful to them as well.

[00:25:54] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Nice. Now, when you published your books in the first place, did you self-publish them or go through a publisher, and what helps you to make that decision? I. 

[00:26:04] Michael Stockham: So all self-published at this five minutes set up our own press, which is called Whistling Pigs Press. And then we work through various different subcontractors for different components of the book.

[00:26:16] Some of those are, uh, a lot of that is sort, I use Aurora as sort of a clearing house to help find those people. But then you also get the choice. Of working with people that you really find talented. Like I think our cover designer is brilliant, so we're always happy to farm out more work to him. You know, finding, uh, copywriters, copy editors, proofreaders, things like that.

[00:26:38] And sometimes it's super successful and sometimes you just have to pivot. But, you know, there, there are enough creative freelance people out there that you can do your own self press and publishing and pursue that, that avenue if you want. 

[00:26:53] Teddy Smith: Yeah, when, when I asked you the question, you said you are self-published at the, at the moment is, is it, is that something that you can imagine changing or do you want to stay down the self-publishing route?

[00:27:02] Michael Stockham: We debate that, so I don't, you know, if a publisher were interested in the project and wanted to, to move forward with that, certainly would discuss it, right? I mean, there's different benefits to going both ways but not a, not a not opposed to it in any way, shape or form, but it was just a way to get the books out and Kendall really has democratized publishing.

[00:27:23] So anybody that wants to write a novel and push it out can. And there are enough, like I said, creative and talented people and subcontractors that can help bring your vision to to life. 

[00:27:35] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. Well, I mean, one of the main takeaways I'm taking away from this call, and I think it's kind of how I approach my writing as well, is you look at it much more as I'm creating a business around my writing and setting up all the systems in place so that it can run as successfully as possible to leave me to just do the writing.

[00:27:51] Is that kind of. Am I getting the idea there? 

[00:27:54] Michael Stockham: Absolutely. So there's two compulsions for I think any writer. One is to write a successful novel and that it actually holds together, and that there are, there are people that read it that enjoy it. So creatively successful. The other part of it is, it is you don't want it to just be a financial black hole.

[00:28:15] You'd like to try to be successful from a business aspect and. One of the reasons I chose to do it is because I don't plan on retiring from being an attorney anytime soon. I'm 55 this year. You know, I could probably work until I'm 70, but my father's 92 years old, his mom lived to 105. So at 70 years of age, if I retire, I've got 35 more years to figure out what to do.

[00:28:42] Teddy Smith: Yeah. 

[00:28:43] Michael Stockham: On a long personal arc. What am I gonna do in retirement other than just garden and, and sit in the burka lounge or in the house? I think writing might be a, a really great way to enjoy sort of retirement and, you know, keep all the great faculties and everything else going on, mental faculties being spry, being engaged with other people.

[00:29:06] So it's sort of a secondary plan as well. 

[00:29:09] Teddy Smith: Yeah, great. I mean, that's the main aim of this podcast is helping people to make more money from their books by thinking about it more as a book business rather than a, rather than just as writing. So I think there's been some really cool stuff to take away for everyone who's listening to this.

[00:29:23] Michael Stockham: Yeah, I think one of the things is persevere. There's a lot of ups and downs in their days that I. Sometimes you feel kicked in the gut and there are some days that you feel euphoric. 

[00:29:33] Teddy Smith: Yeah, 

[00:29:33] Michael Stockham: uh, and just persevere. If you really wanna write a book, if you really want to try to make it successful. If this is something that you're passionate about, like I said, take it in small steps, break it down to where you can be successful a little bit each day, and then ultimately, hopefully that arc of success goes parabolic and you become greatly successful over time.

[00:29:53] Oh, 

[00:29:54] Teddy Smith: what great points to leave it on. Now, just before we go, I want to gi gimme a bit of a, an overview of the Jake Fox series. And without giving away what's gonna happen in the end, give us a bit of a, an idea of whether you want the series to go. 

[00:30:07] Michael Stockham: Absolutely. So Jake Fox is based on an, I mean, there it's not real world of ed, but an attorney, big firm attorney in a large town, uh, who sort of gets kicked in the gut by life with a daughter that commits suicide.

[00:30:20] So he goes home. To his hometown in small town Texas called Haven. And in those particular, in, in that arena, he runs into different, uh, legal or other thriller type obstacles over the nine books. And it's a rekindling of old friendships. It's a coming home and I think it's sort of an arc of redemption for him over the nine books.

[00:30:45] Teddy Smith: Fantastic. I'm really forward to, uh, getting stuck in and really starting to read them. They sound right up my street, so I'm really looking forward to that. Well, thank you so much for coming on. It's been, um, great chatting to you. My pleasure. I've loved speaking to you about how you really see the book this as a book business, not just as just writing.

[00:31:01] 'cause I think, you know, by setting up these systems, you can have that life that you're talking about where, you know, when you do retire, you can just concentrate on the writing and not have to worry about the, the other aspects. But you've gotta put that work in first to get those systems in place. So thank you very much.

[00:31:14] Michael Stockham: My pleasure. It's been a blessing to be invited on and I've had a great time conversing with you. 

[00:31:19] Teddy Smith: Great. Well, thank you very much and we'll speak in soon. 

[00:31:22] Michael Stockham: Absolutely. Thanks, Teddy. 

[00:31:24] Teddy Smith: Bye. Thank you so much for tuning into the Publishing performance podcast. I really hope you found today's episode inspiring. I love chatting to authors, writers, and people in the publishing world.

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