The Publishing Performance Show

JD Barker - Co-Writing Thrillers with James Patterson and Indie vs Traditional Publishing

• Teddy Smith • Episode 84

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JD Barker is a New York Times bestselling author who has experienced various publishing paths including traditional, indie, and hybrid publishing. With a background as a book doctor and ghostwriter for over 20 years, JD transitioned to writing his own novels and has since collaborated with James Patterson among other notable authors. His unique publishing journey includes a special relationship with Simon & Schuster that combines the advantages of indie publishing with the distribution power of a major publisher. JD's expertise spans multiple genres within the thriller and suspense categories, and he has numerous works optioned for film and television.


In this episode:

  • JD's journey from ghostwriter to bestselling author
  • The pros and cons of traditional vs. indie publishing
  • His unique partnership arrangement with Simon & Schuster
  • Collaborating with James Patterson and other co-authors
  • How outlining transformed his writing process
  • Creative marketing strategies for book promotion
  • Tips for new authors on quality, consistency, and platform building
  • The challenges of adapting books for film and television
  • Upcoming projects including a Flatliners reboot novel


Resources mentioned:


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[00:00:00] Teddy Smith: Hi everyone, and welcome to the Publishing Performance Show. Today I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by JD Barker, who is a New York Times bestselling author. So welcome to show JD. 

[00:00:15] JD Barker: Hey Teddy, how are you doing? 

[00:00:16] Teddy Smith: I'm really good, thank you. How are you? I. I'm doing good. I should really say welcome back to the show after we had our really short session in, uh, author Nation.

[00:00:25] JD Barker: Yeah, we did like the couple minutes real quick and which was fun, but I, it's nice to be able to, sit down and, actually be able to talk. 

[00:00:33] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. How did you find Author Nation? 

[00:00:37] JD Barker: I, honestly, I loved it. It was my first time there. And, you know, it's funny because I've known Joe for a little while now.

[00:00:42] JD Barker: And, you know, I came outta the traditional world. I've indie published, I've done traditional, I've done hybrid. But when you're on the traditional side, like they like actually told us not to go to 20 books, to 50 K. Like they didn't want traditional authors at, that, like the, you know, the publishers would tell us just not to go.

[00:00:57] JD Barker: Right. Um, so I'm really glad to see the rebranding because honestly, like everything about publishing is getting very blurry. I don't know that there really is a traditional and in India anymore. I've been calling the traditional publishers, legacy publishers, 

[00:01:08] Teddy Smith: you know, 

[00:01:09] JD Barker: mainly, because like, they haven't changed their ways, you know, like the last book that I gave them, they sent me a PowerPoint presentation with their marketing plan, and it was literally the same one that I'd seen with the last book that I'd given that, a random house, you know, four, five years earlier.

[00:01:21] JD Barker: It's like they did a find and replace on a, you know, on a. A PowerPoint presentation and just kind of moved on, but like, they didn't change any of their, tactics. And you know, I love the indie world because, you know, like as an indie author, you know, like if you pick your boats in a harbor, indie authors can make changes so fast where like those little speedboats zipping around and their traditional publishers are like a giant cruise ship, you know, just, it takes them an hour to make a left turn.

[00:01:42] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Um, 

[00:01:43] JD Barker: but like the indies can do circles around them. So I, love the vibe there. And the other thing I got from it is honestly, like, I've been to so many conferences, a lot of the really big ones, you know, like bow Con and stuff like that. They're great at promoting debut authors and they're fantastic at promoting the really big names, but they don't have a whole lot there for those people that are in the middle, which is honestly 99% of the people that attend these conferences.

[00:02:03] JD Barker: And it feels to me like Author Nation really fills that gap. They teach you how to get from that first book, you know, to the 10th book to, you know, working towards becoming a household name, which is what I'm shooting for. 

[00:02:12] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Awesome. And were there any particular talks you went to which you thought were, which stood out to you as being really interesting?

[00:02:19] JD Barker: You know, I, it was fun for me to meet some people, like, you know, Kevin Anderson for the first time. Yes. 'cause I've known him through other people that, you know, we've got a lot of mutual friends. so that was fantastic. His presentation, you know, just on his life story. To me that's just, it's so inspiring because like most people don't, like, I've only been a full-time author for 10 years.

[00:02:37] JD Barker: I just had my 10 year anniversary from the time my, my first book was published. Like, so much can change. I've written books with James Patterson and like, he came from literally nothing. He grew up in a boarding. House, you know, so it's like, it's amazing to, to hear those kind of stories and I love to, to, you know, like those are the ones that always get me.

[00:02:52] JD Barker: So Kev, Kevin's speech was great. 

[00:02:54] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I really enjoyed that. And I, had Kevin Anderson, he was on my, one of my first guests on the show, which I was so happy about 'cause I kind of just emailed him out of. Hoping and he said yes. So, it was great to actually meet him in person as well.

[00:03:05] Teddy Smith: That was awesome. your, what you just said actually kind of led quite nicely onto my first question. So your first book, forsaken, you published that yourself. What was the decision? what, went into the decision to publishing it yourself rather than going through a publisher? 

[00:03:21] JD Barker: I, honestly, I, fell into indie publishing because I, completely screwed up the querying process.

[00:03:26] JD Barker: Like I, I knew I had written a good book. I had worked as a book Docer and a ghost writer for, 20 some years. I hit the New York Times bestseller list six different times with other, you know, books that I had written for other people. They basically had other names on the cover. So I knew how to write a good.

[00:03:39] JD Barker: Book, but I had no clue how to query agents. So when I was ready to, query for that book, I bought a list of agents. I sent them all basically a form letter, you know, to whom it may concern, here's my novel, here's what it's about. I, didn't bother to look at any of their websites to see what their criteria was.

[00:03:53] JD Barker: And every agent's got different criteria. You know, this one wants times New Roman for a font. This one wants Ariel, this one wants a PDF, this one wants a Word document. I didn't look at any of that. I just sent them all the same thing. And, you know, surprise, I didn't get a whole lot of response from.

[00:04:07] JD Barker: So I just decided, well, like I knew I had a good book, I knew, you know, I could indie publish as I learned all the, rules and, you know, basically made a, mental note that, you know, if I was gonna do this, the book would have to come out on par with something coming out of Random House. Like I, I wasn't gonna just put it on Amazon and hit the publish button.

[00:04:22] JD Barker: So I hired professionals across the board for. Cover for formatting, for copy editing, all that kind of stuff. and ultimately, I put it out as a hard cover and an audiobook and ebook all on the same day. Six months later we released a paperback. So I followed the same model that I saw the traditional guys doing.

[00:04:37] JD Barker: But I wanted it to, you know, 'cause in my mind they were my competition, right? So I wanted it to look and feel as if it was coming from one of them. I felt that if it didn't, you know, I was already losing the game. 

[00:04:47] Teddy Smith: So your first books, it was, it sounds like it was quite a while in the making. If you're already in the industry before where you're writing for other people.

[00:04:53] Teddy Smith: Did it take you a long time to get that first book out? 

[00:04:57] JD Barker: No, I, wrote that book in probably about four months. You know, 'cause I've been writing for, you know, like once you get like a couple books behind you, like you learn the formula, you learn, you know, what works for you, what doesn't work for you.

[00:05:07] JD Barker: So I, I can knock out a book in about three to four months. With that particular one you know, I was. I, was basically writing as a, side gig. 'cause I, you know, I'd been told my entire life, you can't make a living as a writer. You have to get a real job. So I, went into the corporate world.

[00:05:19] JD Barker: I was working in finance, and I would come home and I would write at night. And that's when I did the book Doctor and the Ghost Writer stuff. And like over that time I had all those books that hit the New York Times list. You know, with other people's names on the cover, which gets really old when you're the one actually doing the work.

[00:05:33] JD Barker: So my wife came up with this crazy plan. You know, we had to walk away from the lifestyle because I, in order for, you know, we wanted, I wanted to quit my job. But I couldn't do it because we had a big house. We had cars, we had a boat, you know, it was expensive. So she came up with this plan. We sold everything that we owned.

[00:05:46] JD Barker: We bought a tiny little duplex in Pittsburgh, lived in one side, rented out the other side, and, you know, basically it got to the point where I could live off of savings and write that first book. So, so that's when I did it. And it took about four months to, to get. That first draft done, maybe another month or two to polish it.

[00:05:59] Teddy Smith: Wow. What was your, what were you doing before that made you, and what was the reason you wanted to go into writing your own book? Was it just because you got fed up of seeing it on the New York Times list? Is that it? 

[00:06:09] JD Barker: Yeah. You know, it's like, a lot of the books that I did were memoirs and autobiographies.

[00:06:14] JD Barker: But you know, I would write them for somebody else in their voice. Their name would go on the cover. Those didn't bother me quite so much, but the last one that really got me, I was hired by one of the top five publishers. They had a, an author who. Was due for, and his book was due. But he also had to go out on book tour and he was only halfway done with the novel.

[00:06:30] JD Barker: So they brought me in to basically finish that book as a ghost writer. So they sent me the first half of the book that he wrote. He gave me his outline. Yeah, I worked with him over the phone, but I essentially wrote the second half of that book. But you know, obviously I received zero credit for it.

[00:06:41] JD Barker: And then I did another one immediately after that where I wrote the entire book. And again, somebody else's name went on the cover. And like when I saw those hit the New York Times list, I just felt, you know, like, now I'm ready. You know, and I could have, you know, I. 43, when I published my first book, I could have easily started publishing books back in my twenties, but I don't know that I'd be where I am today because I feel like I needed those 20 years to really learn what I was doing.

[00:07:01] JD Barker: You know, so when I finally wrote one on my own, I, felt like I had a good handle on the entire process. 

[00:07:06] Teddy Smith: Yeah. That's so interesting. Now, with your books you've, your first one was indie published, but since then you've had books which have gone down the traditional route. You've had hybrid published.

[00:07:14] Teddy Smith: You've had also. Now you've got your own sort of special relationship with Simon Schuster, which I'd like to talk about in a bit. But what's been the difference between having those different types of publishing for your business? 

[00:07:25] JD Barker: Well, I, feel like indie publishing kind of ruined me. 'cause if I had gone directly into traditional, I wouldn't have known what it was like, you know?

[00:07:33] JD Barker: Right. But, you know, my, my second, I, I sold a lot of copies of that first book. It sold about a quarter million titles and as an indie published title, that's, pretty good. And when you do that, you end up on the radar. The traditional guys, they watch for that. So when I wrote my second book, which was called The Fourth Monkey, and my agent took it out, I, had no trouble getting an agent that time.

[00:07:50] JD Barker: She took it out and we immediately started getting offers. And I ended up it went to, auction, and it went to HMH, which is now part of Harper Collins. And I got a seven figure deal out of it. There was a movie and a TV show attached, so it was like a complete opposite of, you know, like indie publishing that title.

[00:08:04] JD Barker: But I had to give up control. Like you hand in that book and like, they can change anything. They can change the title, they can change the cover like the size of your name on the cover. Like none of those decisions are yours anymore. And that, that bothered me a little bit. But, you know, there was also the economic side.

[00:08:19] JD Barker: You know, getting a seven figure deal, you know, for my second book was fantastic. I mean, don't get me wrong, getting that advanced check, I would've never sent, you know, I, I wouldn't say no to that. But you know, you have to pay that back. It's in advance. And when you're traditionally published, you're paying it back.

[00:08:32] JD Barker: With, you know, pennies on the dollar, you earn roughly 70 cents on the dollar as an indie. And on the traditional side, you're lucky if you get 15 to 20 cents. So you have to pay that advance back with those smaller little increments. And then to continue to earn, you have to sell a lot more books than you would have to as an indie.

[00:08:46] JD Barker: So I got a taste for it and, you know, so I immediately did the math. You know, with every traditional book that I published, and I published a few through the traditional market after that. And then it got to the point where, you know, again, I got fed up. I tend to get fed up a lot when I run into a brick wall when I feel like there's a brass ring out there that I'm not holding yet.

[00:09:02] JD Barker: So I called my agent. I wrote a book called A Callers Game. I basically destroy like half a New York. It's a big action, adventure book. But I told her, listen, I'm gonna keep English rights for myself. I'm gonna indie, publish those through my own, imprint. You can go ahead and sell all the foreign rights like you normally do.

[00:09:16] JD Barker: And at that point. You know, I'm in about 150 different countries, about 20 to 30 different languages. So there was still a big market there for her to work on, but I wanted to, publish English. So I, I called that basically hybrid publishing at the time, and I'm not sure if that's what other people were calling it, but it didn't, you know, not too many people were doing it.

[00:09:31] JD Barker: But we did the next couple of books that way. And I really liked it because I got to retain all the control. Because I created my own covers. I actually licensed those covers back. So when the foreign publishers wanted my image from my ink, you know, my, my American cover, I could actually charge them for using it.

[00:09:45] JD Barker: Which, you know, to me felt like the, better business, you know, decision. So I did that for a couple of books. And then I guess it was about a year and a half ago, I wrote a book called Behind a Closed Door. Sent it off to my agent and at this point I was with a company called Writer's House out in New York.

[00:09:59] JD Barker: He took it out, he started shopping it to the publishers. We immediately got film interest and we ended up signing an option for the, a film deal on that. And the book was about to go to auction. We had a couple. Big publishers that wanted it. And I got a phone call from a friend of mine who worked at Random House and she said, listen, we're about to offer on your book, but you need to turn it down.

[00:10:15] JD Barker: And I asked her why. And she said, well, the editor who wants your book is about to get laid off. We're about to go through a round of firings. And, that editor is on that list. I got a similar phone call from somebody at Harper Collins about a week or two later. And then all these layoffs happened across the industry.

[00:10:28] JD Barker: And if you've ever known anybody that had a book that was with a publisher and you lose your editor, that book can sit there in limbo forever. You know, depending on your contract, if you don't have a way out, like they don't have to publish that book. So that really scared me. So my last real job, you know, I worked in finance in the corporate world.

[00:10:43] JD Barker: I reached out to some friends of mine that knew people at the private equity firm that had recently bought Simon and Schuster. And ultimately I struck a deal where they allowed me to create my own imprint on Simon and Schuster. So I can publish whatever I want whenever I want, but I have Simon and Schuster as my backbone, so they handle all of my print sales and distribution.

[00:10:59] JD Barker: So for me that's the, golden ticket. It's the best of both. Worlds because I've got all that freedom as an indie, I've got the financial, you know, ability to, earn as an indie. But I've got, you know, one of the top five publishers behind me. So I can get those indie titles in those places that you can't really get to as an indie author.

[00:11:14] JD Barker: I can get 'em into Costco, the grocery stores, drug stores you know, you name it. So, I really like it. And I honestly think that's, where the future is, because if you think about it, if you take a big name, indie author, you know, they put out a book, they make a million dollars off of that book. If a traditional publisher offers them a million dollar check, they're gonna say no, 'cause there's no incentive for them to take.

[00:11:32] JD Barker: That money, they know what they can do on their own without the headaches of having to deal with that world. But, you know, you give them the ability to use that distribution system, that's a game changer if you're an indie because, you know, the, their print costs are next to nothing. And like I said, they can get you in those places you just can't get to.

[00:11:47] JD Barker: So I, think you're gonna see a lot more of these in the coming years. 

[00:11:51] Teddy Smith: the relationship you have with Simon Schuster, is that quite unique to you, or are you seeing other successful authors have a sort of similar relationship as well now? I 

[00:11:59] JD Barker: don't know of any other authors that have signed this.

[00:12:01] JD Barker: I've seen a lot of small imprints that have signed up for, similar deals, but I think the authors are coming. 

[00:12:06] Teddy Smith: Right, I see. And how does that relationship work now that you've got that sort of special relationship, how does it work in terms of like the, your income insight, getting the books out into different places?

[00:12:18] JD Barker: Yeah, I mean, it's, honestly not that different from, you know, like indie publishing a title other than I have to give them, you know, a lot of the pieces a little bit earlier than I normally would. You know, they need the, interior files, the cover jacket, all that kind of stuff. I have to work with specific designers that are familiar with the, system that Simon Schuster has in place that sort of thing.

[00:12:37] JD Barker: You know, but otherwise it's not that different. I mean, I was already printing in bulk before this, you know, that was one of the other things that I learned like, you know, you can do, you know, if, you're just starting off, you can do one-off printing through companies like Ingram Spark. 

[00:12:47] Teddy Smith: Yep. 

[00:12:47] JD Barker: You know, which is fantastic because it, you know, at least gets those hard covers in the hands of your readers.

[00:12:52] JD Barker: But your margins are crazy small, you know, if, you're printing one copy at a time. So I always encourage people, you know, when you get to the financial point where you can do. Bulk, you know, print a thousand, print 5,000, print 10,000. There's plenty of companies out there that'll do it. And you can get your print costs down and make substantially more.

[00:13:08] JD Barker: So to me, working with Simon Schuster is very similar to that. I have to put in on, you know, a pretty decent sized print order. and you know, those books get warehoused, but my margins are, exceptional. Yeah. You know, so there's a little bit of a learning curve. You know, they've got a, very robust system in place, but you know, in, in general, like they, they've been a fantastic partner on 

[00:13:24] Teddy Smith: this.

[00:13:25] Teddy Smith: That's interesting that when you get a certain level of success, you can end up using Simon Schuster as your print on demand company. It's 

[00:13:30] JD Barker: that's essentially what it turned into. I mean, I, used a company called Baker and Taylor for a little while in between. Because most bookstores are libraries, they, tend to order from either Ingram or Baker and Taylor.

[00:13:40] JD Barker: Most indie authors only pick one. You know, they tend to go with Ingram 'cause it's the low hanging fruit and it's the one that, you know, we tend to talk about the most at conferences and, you know, shows like this. But Baker and Taylor is a great way to offset. That. And I, use them quite a bit too.

[00:13:53] JD Barker: But I, think you're gonna see a lot of, you know, a lot of presses, like the cost of even print on demand is getting cheaper. They're getting smarter about it, you know, even printing in color, like that's becoming an option. You know, so I think the whole world is, evolving. And, you know, what really bugged me about the traditional world is a lot of large publishers aren't evolving with it.

[00:14:09] JD Barker: Simon and Schuster, you know, to their credit, they've stepped out and they did something like this, and I, don't know that they would've done this. Two years ago, you know, like, I think this happened because they're owned by private equity. Private equity picked up Simon and Schuster. They see them as a business that does X and, they look at all those pieces that particular business has and they try to figure out how to, you know, make more money using those, pieces.

[00:14:30] JD Barker: So I think they're kind of forcing Simon and Schuster to think differently. And to their credit, Simon Schuster is willing to do it. 

[00:14:35] Teddy Smith: Yeah, that's so interesting. Now, I mean, a lot of the books I write or all the books I write are nonfiction. And so I see a majority of my books being. Sold as paperback because I think people like to buy paperback and write on them, especially for nonfiction books.

[00:14:50] Teddy Smith: When I speak to a lot of fiction authors, most of their sales come through eBooks. But it sounds like you do more of your sales through the paperback. So what, how does it work if you're selling your eBooks as well? 

[00:15:01] JD Barker: I think it has a lot to do with the way that I've been published to date. You know, so my first book was Indie published, so that one by far sold way more eBooks than, print.

[00:15:09] JD Barker: You know, then it was available in hardcover and paperback and, you know, but you know, mainly through KDP, so that's what people bought. But then my next couple of books were traditionally published. So, you know, as I built my fan base, those fans became accustomed to going into a bookstore and finding my title, walking into Costco or the grocery store, and finding one of my books.

[00:15:25] JD Barker: So when I, you know, went to the hybrid approach after that, they. Expected to find my books in tho those places, so I had to make sure that they, got there. I think it's because I've been bouncing back and forth between, the two. My reader bases has come with me. and I think that's very important.

[00:15:40] JD Barker: Even from a pricing, you know, standpoint. Like my eBooks are, I price them at around 9 97, I think is okay. The, bulk of 'em. I'm able to do that because, you know, like when I, like, I've got a book coming out in March with James Patterson called The Writer. I think the ebook for that one's 14 something.

[00:15:54] JD Barker: Wow. You know, so my fan base is accustomed to paying the, these larger dollar amounts. You know, I, you know, I think it would be very tricky if, you know, if I were to come out of the gate, you know, pricing my eBooks at, you know, 3 99, 4 99, you know, you can't just change your price and double, you know, but I've been at these price levels the entire time, which I, think has been helpful.

[00:16:11] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Now you talked about that your relationship with James Patterson and writing in partnerships, and you've actually written a few different books with partnerships. How do you find it working with other writers? Do you ever have any conflict and do you have any ways of resolving that? 

[00:16:26] JD Barker: No, I, honestly like it.

[00:16:27] JD Barker: I mean, because I came up in this world, you know, working as a book doctor and a ghost writer. I essentially worked with other people. I've been collaborating my entire career. So it actually felt odd to me to all of a sudden be working on books all by myself. You know, I, I missed having that, that sounding board.

[00:16:40] JD Barker: I mean, the nice thing about working with somebody else is, you know, you've got a particular idea, you know, for a book. They've got a particular idea and it could be totally different from yours. And when you mix those two things together, it's like peanut butter and chocolate. You know, it, it just works.

[00:16:53] JD Barker: But you need to. You know, divide and conquer. I think very early on you need to figure out where everybody's strengths are. When I work with a co-author, it's very similar to, you know, like two chefs being in the kitchen. You know, if you're both making breakfast and you both try to make eggs at the same time, it's gonna be a problem.

[00:17:07] JD Barker: But if you've got one person making bacon while the other one's making eggs, then it all works out. So you've gotta learn to, you know, figure out what, where everybody excels and, base on that. I, love working with other people for you know, because they bring. Different things to the table too.

[00:17:20] JD Barker: So I've, got a book I just released on back in November called Heavier the Stones, and I wrote it with a woman named Christine Dagel, who's a neuropsychologist. So she brought that entire profession into the writing process. And, you know, me, I, could have faked it, I could have done some Google searches, read some books, did some research, and, you know, come up with enough to make it seem believable.

[00:17:38] JD Barker: But when you have an authentic voice like that working with you, you know, you can't beat that. So I, I love working with co-authors just mainly because of that. 

[00:17:45] Teddy Smith: That authentic voice thing is so interesting with novel writers because I was speaking to James Davis who's one of the automation like organizers and Because he's got a background in medicine, he, a lot of his books have that medical standpoint and it's basically his unique selling point. Like people can't get that knowledge that he's got. 'cause how can you write about medical things if you aren't from that background? So it is interesting that you've also used that to make your book stand out as well.

[00:18:11] JD Barker: Yeah, I mean, I try to be as authentic as I, I can, you know, even when I'm working you, I've got, you know, cops that are on speed dial. I've got friends at the FBI, I mean, if, when you write enough books, we all have those, contacts out there. My sister runs a hospital in Florida, so if I need to poison somebody with something unique, you know, she's the first email I send off and she'll run down to the, you know, somebody, the lab, the pathology lab, and she'll answer, get some questions answered for me.

[00:18:33] JD Barker: So, you know, I try to keep it authentic that way. But, you know, it's, honestly, it's easier and more fun when you've got that, you know, somebody who actually has. Has that knowledge base working with you? 

[00:18:41] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. What's the best poison to use, do you think? 

[00:18:45] JD Barker: I like to think of things outside of the box.

[00:18:47] JD Barker: So I've, I killed somebody with a drug called Lisinopril once, which is a blood pressure medication, and if somebody overdoses on it, it can actually cause them to stroke out. Right. So unless they're actually looking for it, they don't actually realize that it's a, that it's an overdose, that it was actually caused by that.

[00:19:02] JD Barker: Right there. There's lots of fun ways to kill people. My, my Google search, if I, if anybody ever checked my Google search, I'd be in a lot of trouble. 

[00:19:09] Teddy Smith: I'll put that drug in the resources section for anyone who wants to buy some later on. How did you find yourself working with James Paton on that series of books I.

[00:19:19] JD Barker: It, it kind of fell together. When Fourth Monkey was coming out, my editor mailed copies of the arcs to, you know, pretty much every big name author he could find. Hoping to get that blurb for the back cover. and Patterson happened to be on that list and he read Fourth Monkey and he like, liked it enough to, reach out to me.

[00:19:34] JD Barker: He lives in Palm Beach and I've got a family in Palm Beach, so. We just made plans to get together when I was in that area and we just started talking and, you know, initially we didn't think we were gonna be able to work together because, you know, he's a hardcore outliner. I was a pants at the time, or discovery writer, however you wanna phrase it, but, you know, coming at each other from basically two different camps.

[00:19:51] JD Barker: So we didn't think it was gonna work, so we kinda left that conversation, you know, think we wouldn't be able to do anything. And then a couple months later we talked again and he's like, you know what? Let's, try this. Let's pants a novel. So I'm the only guy who's ever gotten James Patterson to write a book without an outline.

[00:20:03] JD Barker: And we literally went chapter back and forth. I would write some crazy scenarios. You'll paint him into some impossible situation, send him the pages thinking there's no way he's gonna get out of this. And 15 minutes later he not only got out of it, but he put me into something even crazier. We wrote the whole book that way, which was a lot of fun.

[00:20:18] JD Barker: But after we finished it, he, called me up and he said, all right, now we're gonna try it my way. I'm gonna send you an outline. And he sent me an outline for a book called The Noise and. You know, honestly, after I wrote that one with them, it went so seamlessly and it was so easy to write that book when you already had that framework in front of us.

[00:20:32] JD Barker: I haven't gone back. I've been outlining everything ever since. 

[00:20:34] Teddy Smith: Oh, wow. So it's actually changed your whole perspective on it. 

[00:20:37] JD Barker: He, I tried to convert him into Pantsing and ultimately he switched me and brought me over to his camp. 

[00:20:43] Teddy Smith: You should get some James Paton pants for your website as some merch to sell to your audience.

[00:20:49] JD Barker: Yeah. 

[00:20:50] Teddy Smith: With the outline that you've now started writing, how do you approach that? Have you got a particular structure you'd like to follow for for each book that you write? 

[00:20:58] JD Barker: You know, I tend to come up with the, plot or the scenario first. Then I come up with my characters and I, see them as two very separate things.

[00:21:06] JD Barker: Like I, I have to know my characters inside and out. I have to know them as well as real people before I can start writing that book. Because if I have two different people standing in front of me and I present them both with a problem, they're both gonna gimme different answers. And like, your characters need to be that way too.

[00:21:20] JD Barker: So I fully develop everything before I drop them in there. From an outlining standpoint, I kind of approach it almost. It's almost like an airplane that's getting closer and closer to land. Like I, I throw my big bullet points in first, you know, like something I want to happen at the beginning, something at the middle, something at the end.

[00:21:34] JD Barker: Then I just keep circling through it and I just start filling things in between. And I get closer and closer I. You know, just getting more and more detailed. And before I know it, you know, at this point I've got 30 or 40 pages in an outline before I start writing the book. But I've got that entire framework there which, I love.

[00:21:50] JD Barker: I live on a little island. We were talking about this before we started recording off the coast of Portsmouth up in New England. And I, do a run every day. It's about four miles to do a lap around the island. And I used to spend that time thinking about, you know, what I was gonna write the next day.

[00:22:02] JD Barker: You know, basically, you know, where's the story going, what's coming next? And now that I've got outlines in front of me, I spend that same brain power, you know, and I think about. How do I make what comes next better? You know, because I already know what's happening, so how do I improve it? And I found that the stories have been much tighter and much cleaner and much easier to write.

[00:22:17] Teddy Smith: Yeah. So for people who are just starting out, would you recommend going down the outline approach rather than just writing? Or do you think it is really personal to everyone who does it? 

[00:22:26] JD Barker: I think everybody should try, you know, each, method, you know, until you land on something that, that works for you.

[00:22:31] JD Barker: I mean, I'm constantly, I've got a podcast called Writers Inc. Where we interview a ton of authors. I'm constantly picking their brain on their, process. I've known Dean Koontz for years and one of the things that he told me that worked, I. Really well for him is he starts his day by re, you know, reading whatever he wrote the previous day and editing it and cleaning it up.

[00:22:47] JD Barker: You know, he does four, five, 6,000 words by the time he gets to the end of editing that, you know, he continues the story. He's already back in the story, you know, so it's very easy to just keep going and going and just, I. Repeats that every day. By the time he gets to the end, he's basically done with a first draft.

[00:23:00] JD Barker: And there's very little to do, you know, as far as rewrites go. 'cause he's done all the work up front. And I've been kind of following that, you know, for the last few years too. You know, so I'm always picking up tidbits, you know, from, these guys. I, tend to ask some of the bigger names, but, you know, I purposely do that because, you know, they're, doing well.

[00:23:16] JD Barker: You know, like, I don't wanna ask the guy who's selling a hundred books a, month. I want to talk to the guy who's selling a hundred thousand a month. 

[00:23:21] Teddy Smith: Yeah, a hundred percent. Now with your books, obviously you've had quite a lot of success now, and I know you do a lot of speaking at conferences and comic con type events and things like that, but what marketing do you do for your books and was there anything you did that kind of turned the dial where you did it and you noticed, oh, actually that's made a quite big difference to the book sales.

[00:23:43] JD Barker: You know, I, always try to come up with something different from what I see other people doing. So, you know, every time I've got a new book to promote, I'll sit down, I'll make a list of what I see everybody else doing to promote their titles. And then once I have that, I make a brand new list of things that nobody's doing, I try to come up with something that's outside the box.

[00:23:58] JD Barker: So to give you an example I've got a book coming out in May. It's called something I Keep Upstairs. And it's written, it's based on the island where I live. So I live on an island in. We go to our beach, there's a tiny little island right off our coast that has a house on it. And it's like maybe a quarter mile off the shore.

[00:24:13] JD Barker: And like you can just, you can see the house, but you can't really tell what's happening out there. So I was out, I lived here for years and like, that was just inspiring to me. Like I, I knew there was a story there. So ultimately I wrote this book and the tagline for the book is for a haunted house to be born, somebody has to die.

[00:24:27] JD Barker: You know, so it's, about a kid who, he's 16. He inherits that island from his grandmother. She passes away, so he is 16 years old. He inherits. His house you know, on an island all by itself. So him and his friends do exactly what you expect them to do. They turn it into a party house. But that gets old after a while and they just decide, well, you know, what can we do to turn this into a haunted house?

[00:24:45] JD Barker: So they start off with, you know, a Ouija board and doing this and doing that. The things that you would expect. But again, the tagline is, for haunted house to be born, somebody has to die. Yeah. So you know where the story is going. But to promote that book, you know, like it, it's a real house. It's on a real island.

[00:24:59] JD Barker: So I'm working with the people that actually own the, property. The, city of Kittery and we're giving away an overnight stay. Wow. So, you know, one person is gonna win and they're gonna, you know, be able to take three of their friends and spend a night in this haunted house on their own private island.

[00:25:14] JD Barker: So that's, how we're, you know, one of the things that we're doing to promote the book, you know, which is something I've never seen anybody else do. No. Which, and you know, like we've got Facebook ads running right now to promote that and the reception has been phenomenal. So I always try to come up with something that's a little bit different, you know, 'cause you can.

[00:25:28] JD Barker: You know, you can obviously set, you get Facebook ads to promote stuff and other ads, but word of mouth is what really does it. Whether it's book sales or you know, promotions or whatever. You need people talking. 

[00:25:39] Teddy Smith: That's awesome. I kind of wanna win the prize myself so I can go and stay on the islands.

[00:25:46] Teddy Smith: Have you ever, have you had a chance to scout the island yourself? 

[00:25:49] JD Barker: I've been out there from the get go. Like they, they completely restored it. When the, this this guy basically just took on this project and like every, like, to be able to do this is just insane. But like the house was falling apart.

[00:26:00] JD Barker: There was literally a foot of bat guano, you know, bat shit in the bottom of this place. 'cause they were, it was just filled with bats big holes in the ceiling. It was just completely coming apart. He spent the last four or five years just raising money and, renovating it and bringing it back to life.

[00:26:14] JD Barker: So I've been out there as, a. That's been going on in today's world, in the real world, it's gonna be opening as a museum. Okay. So, but people are gonna be able to spend the night there as you know, not only part of my contest, but they're gonna be able to rent it to, to stay the night there too.

[00:26:26] JD Barker: Yeah. So it's a mix of, both. But like the story that came up with in the book, I, you know, I took a ton of stuff from, like actual events, things that really happened. I mixed the fact with fiction which makes it that much more fun because, you know, like even people stumble into this contest.

[00:26:39] JD Barker: They research the house and they start seeing all these things, you know, that really happened there. And it's, you know, it's inspiring. You know, we're working on getting like ghost hunters out there and things like that too, which is just, it adds to the fun. 

[00:26:50] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. Now, obviously that's quite an extreme marketing tactic that you can do.

[00:26:56] Teddy Smith: Like as someone in your position, but was there anything you did when you started out, maybe that was one of the more different techniques, or was it simply down to advertising and word of mouth? 

[00:27:05] JD Barker: You know, I, tend to look at everything a little differently, so let, I'll take TikTok as an example. Yeah. I think a lot of authors have tried to figure out how to sell books on TikTok, and, you know, as soon as I started following the platform, I, you know, watched.

[00:27:16] JD Barker: The other authors on there, like, nobody wants to see me dancing around holding my book. Like, that's, not gonna work. So ultimately what I did is I paid a college kid to curate email addresses from book talk influencers, basically people that reviewed books on TikTok. We got a list together about, I think we're at four or 5,000 some people now.

[00:27:33] JD Barker: And then I created a mo, a weekly mailing list very similar to book. B I work with all the, big five publishers. They send me a RC copies and I make those available to the influencers. So once a week influencers on TikTok get an email with four or five titles they can pick and they can get books sent to them for free in exchange for a review of that particular book.

[00:27:51] JD Barker: So me as the, owner of that, I can take my own titles and I can drop 'em into that list anytime I want and basically expose 'em to those thousands and thousands of influencers who have millions and millions of followers which is much better than me trying to just create a profile and generate something.

[00:28:05] JD Barker: You know, on my own. So I look at all these things that way. I, you know, I just, there's no other, like that to me was, you know, something organic like that made sense. But me trying to just, you know, create little videos and snippets like that wasn't gonna move the needle. Yeah. You know, Facebook is very similar.

[00:28:20] JD Barker: Like, I, don't do a lot on Facebook, but I've got 18 different accounts on Facebook at different languages. I pay other people to do that for me 'cause it just makes more sense. 

[00:28:28] Teddy Smith: Yeah. I think outsourcing makes quite a big difference. As soon as you can afford to do. Whichever bit you are finding difficult to really start turning that dial because you've only got your own time and so you can only control what you can control.

[00:28:41] JD Barker: Yeah, but I think the one thing you have to keep in mind, like I had mentioned like this, I've been doing this for 10 years as a full-time author, but like, I started in the same place everybody else does. I had zero people on my mailing list, you know, zero followers on the basic, you know, the social media platforms.

[00:28:55] JD Barker: You know, I just, I built it organically over time. And that's what you really want. I mean, there's a lot of things you can do that are gonna. You know, score big numbers. You know, you, I know back in the day a lot of people gave away like their first book in a series, you know, built up their mailing list and then, you know, hope that the, readers would come along.

[00:29:10] JD Barker: That never worked for me because, you know, whenever I picked up readers on a free book, they wanted more free books. You know, so I, never really stuck with that. But you know, again, if I see everybody else doing something at that point, it's played out. I need something new. 

[00:29:22] Teddy Smith: Yeah, for sure. Now, people who are just starting out, what tips would you give them for getting their book out there as much as possible?

[00:29:31] JD Barker: Yeah, I, think the first thing that they have to really think about is just make sure that it's a five star read. don't be quick to hit that publish button. I know so many authors, you know, they, try to get an agent and they get rejected. They get rejected, and then they just say, well, I'm gonna go ahead and self-publish it.

[00:29:44] JD Barker: Like that's not the takeaway from that. The real takeaway should be, why did this book get rejected so many times? Talk to those people and try to find out that reason. Because if you get two or three people that explain why the book. You know why they didn't want it. You can fix those things. Because that book before it gets out on any, platform, it needs to be a five star read.

[00:30:01] JD Barker: If, you know, you have to get professional covers, professional editing, all across the board, because you know, like I mentioned earlier, like your competition is the top five. It's. Penguin Random House. It's not the indie author that lives down the street from you. A million books were published like the first year I published my book.

[00:30:15] JD Barker: I think it was 700,000 books were published that year. Yeah. Quickly broke a million. And last year, 2024, there was 2.4 million books published. Your book is one of them. Yeah. So you have to figure out how to make it. Make it stand out in that crowd. And you know, if you take any shortcuts, what ends up happening is you hit that publish button on Amazon, your friends and family review that book.

[00:30:33] JD Barker: So you get, you know, 15, 25 star reviews and then all of a sudden the real readers find it and then they start pointing out the typos and the, you know, developmental problems and this problem and that problem. And before you know it, your career is more or less dead because people read those reviews before they buy the book and then they pass on it.

[00:30:49] JD Barker: If you try to get into, tra into the traditional world and you put out a book as an indie and it didn't do well, you know, that's the first thing they see. You know, as soon as you hang up with an agent or you send an a, you know, an agent, a query, they Google you, you know, they go on Amazon, they see what you're up to.

[00:31:03] JD Barker: They see all of that. And if they see, you know, you've got a book out there that's ranked, you know, 2.3, you know, stars and you know it's ranked in the millions on Amazon. Like, that's your track record. You know, you've only got one shot at this. You gotta get it right. 

[00:31:17] Teddy Smith: Yeah. And for the, you, mentioned you've got a newsletter.

[00:31:20] Teddy Smith: How do you use your newsletter to speak to your audience? Have you got any particular tips that you could share with people for that? 

[00:31:28] JD Barker: I've got a couple different ones. So I've got one that's geared strictly towards reviewers or the media. So people in the press, people on, you know, social media, stuff like that, they're, on that list.

[00:31:36] JD Barker: I've got another one for bookstores. I've got another one for libraries, and then I've got one for my general, I. You know, fan base. And I use all of them very differently. So, you know, the, reviewers and, you know, people like you, you know, like you'll get a, an email about a book months before it comes out.

[00:31:50] JD Barker: You know, offering a RC copies, I use Net Galley quite a bit to make those books available. I try to be, you know, as, as, visible as I possibly can. So libraries, bookstores, reviewers, those guys all get these things ahead of time. I've got a lot of books coming out because I'm working with a lot of co-authors.

[00:32:04] JD Barker: I've got 12 titles coming out over the next year. So my, typical newsletter for, you know, just my fan base. It's gone from just, you know, this book is coming out in four months to these seven books are coming out. So I, you know, I have to be very careful with that. I don't wanna, you know, send them a message every couple of days.

[00:32:19] JD Barker: So I try to limit it to maybe two or three times a month and try to keep it fresh, but get all of those titles in front of 'em. 

[00:32:25] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Amazing. Now, you, mentioned you've got 12 projects you're working on this year. So could you give us a bit of an insight into the upcoming projects that you've got over the next few months?

[00:32:35] Teddy Smith: Or the next book, the one, 

[00:32:37] JD Barker: do you remember a movie called Flatliners from the nineties? 

[00:32:40] Teddy Smith: I remember the name, but I haven't seen it. 

[00:32:41] JD Barker: Yeah, so this, is a movie. It's one of my all time favorites. It's got Keefer Sutherland, Julia Roberts Billy Baldwin, Kevin Bacon, like all these people at the start of their career.

[00:32:50] JD Barker: And it's essentially about, you know, a bunch of medical students and they decide to, kill each other just to see if there's an afterlife. And it's like the coolest premise. I've always loved this movie. Years later, the guy who wrote it, Peter Ardi, he happened to be attached to one of my other pro.

[00:33:03] JD Barker: Projects off in Hollywood. He was writing d Cool for us. So I got talking up to him about it and I told him I had an idea to, to reboot that franchise. And at the time, the studio still owned the rights. So we couldn't do anything. And then this past January, about a year ago, he called me up and said, Hey, I got the rights back.

[00:33:17] JD Barker: Do you still wanna do something? So we're writing a novel to reboot the franchise, which I, you know, as far as I know that hasn't it, it's only been done one time. They did it with, michael Mann did it with he too. You know, so essentially they wrote the book first. So we're, writing a book to, you know, which has a brand new fresh storyline that it looks like, you know, we've got so much interest coming from Hollywood.

[00:33:36] JD Barker: I'm pretty sure this one's gonna get made pretty quick. 

[00:33:38] Teddy Smith: Wow. But we're 

[00:33:38] JD Barker: just kinda reversing it instead of the movie coming out first and then a book. We're writing the book first based on a movie. So we'll see where that one goes, but that's, the one I'm, it's on my desk now. I should be done with that in about another month or two.

[00:33:48] Teddy Smith: Oh, nice. Would that be the first book that you've had turned into a film that's. Successfully out. 

[00:33:54] JD Barker: It, might be the first one to get to the finish line. Yeah. I've, got eight different ones right now, what I call various stages of Hollywood Hell. But like literally nothing has gotten filmed yet.

[00:34:03] JD Barker: You know, like I've got some books that have been optioned two or three times already. You know, some have one, this one's got a director, this one's got a writer, this one's got a showrunner, this one's got a star next week. That person, you know, backs out now. There is no star. Like it's it. Hollywood is such a crazy rollercoaster.

[00:34:16] JD Barker: I just try to keep my head in the sand and just write the next book. I know sooner or later it's a numbers game. The more I put out something's scam. Gonna get made. 

[00:34:22] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. Have you, with the books that have been optioned, have you had any input on things like the screenwriting or the those sort of aspects?

[00:34:30] JD Barker: I'm an executive producer on everything, which is something I negotiate into the contract. That being said, they rarely pick up the phone because most of these things, they, move like a machine, you know, like you pick up a director or a showrunner, they've got certain people they like to work with.

[00:34:44] JD Barker: People that work well together. The last thing they want is the author raising their hand and, slowing things down and mucking things up. So I try to stay out of it unless they, reach out to me. You know, but I've, I've tried my hand at, screenwriting, Ridley Scott's company picked up a callers game and they asked me to write the screenplay for it.

[00:35:00] JD Barker: I'm no good at it, and my movie ended up being four and a half hours long, you know, because like when I wrote the book, I felt like I cut out everything that needed to be cut, you know? So like, I had nothing I could cut from the. You know, when it turned it into a movie, but like, somehow I need to get that down to two hours and that means taking half the story away and I just, I couldn't bring myself to do it.

[00:35:16] JD Barker: The odd thing is, you know, that was a couple of years ago and you know, like streaming has taken off so much since then. You know, now the streaming companies are looking at it again and they're like, you know what, I think we can actually do this as is. You know, it's, even though it's four and a half hours, that's basically three episodes.

[00:35:30] JD Barker: Yeah. But you know, they'll, do a limited series now without any problems. So I, like the fact that the, world is evolving that way. 

[00:35:37] Teddy Smith: I think so. And it must be a bit easier to write. In many ways to, to film just three longer episodes than it is to film a film. 'cause you don't have to cut the story in a certain way that makes it make sense.

[00:35:46] Teddy Smith: You can just put it out there. 

[00:35:48] JD Barker: Yeah, when Fourth Monkey got optioned, that was my very first one and I had all these phone calls with the directors that, wanted it. And the first thing they did is they started telling me about all the stuff they had to take out to get it down to two hours. You know, like, this character's gotta go.

[00:35:59] JD Barker: We can't do this storyline. We might have to do this instead. I, that, that was really disheartening. And, in today's world, like. Now Fourth Monkey, the whole series is with Lionsgate. They're looking at it as a streaming series, basically one season per book you know, eight to 10 episodes. And they're asking me for like, material that I cut out.

[00:36:15] JD Barker: Like not only can they film what's in the book, but they want something different. So they want material that I took out of the book that they might be able to use. I find that way more refreshing. 

[00:36:24] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. Now, just the, last question just before we finish. You, obviously your books are in a, your books are all in the suspense thrillers, but they kind of cover.

[00:36:33] Teddy Smith: Couple of different like categories such as a horror or mystery. Do you have to wear different hats when you're writing your books, or do you just like write and just see where that structure goes to? 

[00:36:45] JD Barker: There, there's no easier way to piss off an agent or an editor than to jump around between one genre to the next.

[00:36:50] JD Barker: Because they, you know, they feel they have to put you in a box, you know, straight off the bat. Like your agent needs to be able to tell the editor, this person is a suspense author. This person is a horror author. The editor turns around and tells the marketing staff the exact same thing the marketing staff tells the bookstore.

[00:37:04] JD Barker: Yeah. Where, they need to put your book. I, hate. That, like the idea of writing the same book over and over again scares the hell out of me. So I purposely bounced around. My first novel was a horror novel. The second one was a thriller. Then I did the prequel to Dracula. So back to horror, then another thriller.

[00:37:18] JD Barker: What I'm finding is I'm, it's almost like being a literary pied piper. You know, I've got my core base of, readers, they follow me from book to book. My, I try to tie 'em all together with suspense is a common thread. So like, if you read my Wikipedia page, it says I'm a suspense author. Who may include elements of horror elements, the sci-fi elements of this, elements of that.

[00:37:35] JD Barker: But it's very much like, you know, I, look at it and it's almost like another tool. You know, at one point I was told that my audience is female 45 and over. So as soon as I heard that, you know, which is a fantastic audience to have, I wanted to know how I could expand that. So I wrote a young adult.

[00:37:49] JD Barker: Book and called she has a broken thing where her heart should be. So I immediately picked up, you know, teens, I picked up 20 year olds and brought them to the fold and, you know, changed the dynamic of my, reader base. So I'm always looking for that, you know, one project that's a little different that's gonna end up grabbing readers from someplace that wouldn't normally find me.

[00:38:06] JD Barker: 'cause I, you know, I know once I get on my rope 'em in and they're, hooked. 

[00:38:09] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Yeah. That's very interesting. Now have you got any tips for people who are just starting out? 'cause most of the listeners to this podcast are people who are trying to get into industry or they're. Maybe they've written their first book and they wanted to make as many sales as possible.

[00:38:22] Teddy Smith: Have you got any steps for people who are, just starting out? 

[00:38:26] JD Barker: You know, you just have to take it slowly. You know, all this stuff builds over time. You know, I've been at it for 10 years and you know, like I said, my email list started at zero. You know, when I first started doing this, I was in the corporate world.

[00:38:36] JD Barker: I was working 60, 80 hours a week, but I would find time to write, you know, every single day. And I think that's important. I. You know, it doesn't have to be much, you know, two to 300 words. But that'll get you a novel within a year if, you can keep up that pace. And what you find is writing is very much like going to the gym.

[00:38:51] JD Barker: It's like exercising. If you do it every single day, it gets easier. You can do more, you can, you know, you can write more, you can lift more. It's all the same thing. So. You know, I, feel that it's important to do it every single day. Even if it's just a little bit there's ways to get that done, you know, try to write in the same place every day.

[00:39:05] JD Barker: It's easier if you do that. I personally, I listen to a thunderstorm soundtrack, you know, white noise. Whenever I write the second I put those headphones on, it's like a Pavlov's dog thing. My brain snaps into writer's mode. 

[00:39:15] Teddy Smith: Yeah. 

[00:39:16] JD Barker: So I was able to do that anywhere I could put on my headphones at the grocery store right.

[00:39:19] JD Barker: While I was in line. You know, there, there's ways to get it done. But I, you know, 

[00:39:23] Teddy Smith: I 

[00:39:23] JD Barker: think 

[00:39:23] Teddy Smith: you need to do it every day. It's about getting your reps in is basically what you're saying, 

[00:39:27] JD Barker: ex. Exactly. 

[00:39:28] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Just like going to the gym. Well, brilliant. It's been so, I mean, it's been fantastic talking to you.

[00:39:32] Teddy Smith: Thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. If people are sort of new to your work, where's the best place to start with your books? I. 

[00:39:39] JD Barker: Easiest place to find me is jd barker.com. The books are pretty much everywhere. I've got three coming out pretty short. I've got we don't talk about Emma coming out in February.

[00:39:48] JD Barker: The writer with James Patterson coming out in March. And then my next solo title is something I Keep Upstairs, comes out in May. 

[00:39:53] Teddy Smith: Brilliant. And if the, if people are new to your work, which one would you recommend They start with? 

[00:39:58] JD Barker: Any one of those, or if you really want to go old school, if you're looking for something scary, pick up your cool.

[00:40:03] JD Barker: If you're, if you like serial killers, the fourth monkey is a great place to start. 

[00:40:06] Teddy Smith: Brilliant. Well thank you very much. It's been great chatting to you. And just before we go, there's one question I'll ask to everyone, and that is, what's a book you recommends that everyone should read? 

[00:40:15] JD Barker: Wow. So I'm a huge Stephen King fan.

[00:40:18] JD Barker: if you're gonna read a book on, writing, his book called On Writing is probably the, best one on craft. I mean, I've got a ton of books behind me. That's the only one actually on craft that's up on the shelves there that I pulled down on a regular basis. And honestly, like I've, studied King's work.

[00:40:31] JD Barker: He's fantastic at creating characters in like two or three sentences. So I tend to read his books when they come out first as a fan and then as an author. I'll break out the highlighter and I'll go through, you know, particularly a short story. And just highlight like every time he introduces a new character and then study that and break it down.

[00:40:47] JD Barker: So if you're trying to learn the craft, he's a great, person to follow. 

[00:40:50] Teddy Smith: Yeah. I read somewhere that Stephen King was what he gave you permission to use some of his characters in one of your first books. That must be really exciting. 

[00:40:58] JD Barker: Yeah, he let me use some of his characters from needful things and, Forsaken my very first novel.

[00:41:02] JD Barker: I got really lucky there. 

[00:41:03] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Wow, that's really awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming to the show. It's been great chatting to you. And hopefully we'll speak again soon. 

[00:41:09] JD Barker: All right. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. 

[00:41:12] Teddy Smith: Thank you so much for tuning into the Publishing performance podcast. I. I really hope you found today's episode inspiring.

[00:41:17] Teddy Smith: I love chatting to authors, writers, and people in the publishing world. Now, just before we wrap up, let me tell you about publishing Formants the number one platform for authors who want to increase Amazon book sales, but I'm not really sure where to start. Now, this show is all about helping you to sell more books, and if you are looking to boost your publishing game and to maximize your book's potential on Amazon, then publishing performance.

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