The Publishing Performance Show

Louise Harris - The Complete Guide to Book Editing and Development

• Teddy Smith • Episode 62

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Louise Harris is the founder and president of LAST Research and Editing, specializing in comprehensive editing services for authors. With over 30 years of experience in editing and journalism, she has edited numerous manuscripts, authored four novels, and ghost-written multiple books including cookbooks and a book on addiction. Her expertise spans both fiction and non-fiction editing, from developmental work to final proofreading.


In this episode:

  • Different types of editing explained
  • The importance of developmental editing
  • Working with editors at different stages
  • Tips for authors on a budget
  • Book compilation services
  • Common editing mistakes
  • Flow and structure techniques


Resources mentioned:


Book recommendations:


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[00:00:00] Teddy Smith: Hi, everyone. Welcome to The Publishing Performance Show I'm joined today with Louise Harris, who is the founder of the president of Last Research and Editing, a business which specializes in doing editing of books and things like that. So thank you very much for joining us. 

[00:00:19] Louise Harris: Thank you, Teddy, for inviting me.

[00:00:21] Louise Harris: I'm happy to be here. 

[00:00:24] Teddy Smith: Great. Thank you. Well, why don't we do a bit of a background into you and how you got started editing and what drew you to the world of books? 

[00:00:32] Louise Harris: Sure. Okay. So I always knew I was going to be a writer. At age 12, I published my first poem and I got paid for it. so when I was looking into colleges, I wanted to go into journalism because I wanted to be able to provide people the information that they needed.

[00:00:51] Louise Harris: So I went to the university of Maryland college of journalism. And when I came out, I was offered two reporting jobs and one editing job. And I took the editing job because. It worked better with my schedule, and it was more flexible, and it was also, it was closer to home, and it was also more money. So, that's what got me into editing, but in college, I actually found out that I am a better editor than I am a writer.

[00:01:21] Louise Harris: So, I like reading other people's stuff and correcting other people rather than correcting my own stuff. So, so it's really those two things that brought me into editing is that I I really am good at it. So, and are you 

[00:01:40] Teddy Smith: quite bossy? You like correcting other people's work. 

[00:01:43] Louise Harris: I do. It's fun of me because, you know, I'll see something on TV or in and I'll, or I'll hear someone say an incorrect English and I'll immediately correct them and it will just come out of my mouth and I won't even be thinking about it.

[00:01:59] Louise Harris: I'll just. Do 

[00:02:06] Teddy Smith: you have a big collection of red pens to strike lines through words and things like that? Yes, I 

[00:02:09] Louise Harris: do. I have a lot of markers actually. I have, I like to do like green at Christmastime and pink in Easter time, so I'll use a bunch of different colors, but that actually brings up a point about editing books for clients.

[00:02:27] Louise Harris: I usually print them out and read them on paper because you catch more, so I will use my pens rather than doing it on the computer. I'm getting flashbacks to 

[00:02:40] Teddy Smith: school when 

[00:02:41] Louise Harris: yeah, 

[00:02:41] Teddy Smith: I was like, I'm getting flashbacks to school where your teacher would just put red lines through your work. 

[00:02:46] Louise Harris: Nowadays with my kids, everything was on the computer, so they, they didn't have that where the teachers crossed it out and, but yes, I am an old school person.

[00:03:00] Teddy Smith: Why not? So when you edit your books, so that's the, that's one of the main jobs of last research. One of the main services that you provide is provide. So you say like, you've got great attention to detail and that's the, that's what you enjoy doing. So can you tell me a bit about what editing means? Cause I know that there's lots of different types of editing from developmental editing all the way to line editing, but they're a bit different.

[00:03:25] Teddy Smith: So tell me a bit about what editing is for people who don't 

[00:03:30] Louise Harris: I tend to be a comprehensive editor when I'm working on non nonfiction versus fiction. Fiction, the developmental editor, is more common in fiction than is in nonfiction. And comprehensive is somebody who will do both developmental and, line editing and copy editing.

[00:03:53] Louise Harris: So it's all in one. But the differences are this. A developmental editor is someone who's looking at the big picture, looking for plot holes, looking for things that the author might have missed or things that might make the story better adding action. So they're not really looking at the nitty gritty such as grammar or lines or awkwardness.

[00:04:19] Louise Harris: They're just looking at the big picture. Whether the outline fits the story and the plot. A copy editor or a line editor, they're pretty much the same thing, they're basically looking for grammar, awkward sentences, spelling errors, and things that don't quite fit that need to be eliminated, and then there is a proofreader, which is the very last person, and the proofreader is basically looking for typos.

[00:04:53] Louise Harris: When you're formatting the book, things happen like there's widows. A widow is a line that is at the, is at the end of a book that doesn't connect. Or an orphan is on the second page but it's just one line. So a proofreader is looking for those kind of things and for spelling errors that came from typos.

[00:05:19] Louise Harris: One of the problems with spellcheck and voice editing is that you have words like there, there, and there, so they'll be, might be spelled one way, but then they'll show up a different way in the copy. And that's one of the reasons why I print my book, because when I'm editing, Because your, your ear, when you're reading it out loud, will catch those awkward things, but when you're doing it on a computer, you won't necessarily catch them.

[00:05:55] Louise Harris: And when you're reading it on paper, you will see that it's the wrong word choice, and, but you won't necessarily on a computer. So that's why you need a proofreader, because some of those things do get through, even after four or five days. Right, okay.

[00:06:15] Teddy Smith: And the, when you're doing the proofreading, for example. Obviously in America, you spell everything incorrectly compared to us over here. So do you do everything in the same version of English? 

[00:06:28] Louise Harris: Well, there's different styles, but yes, I do. I tend to only work with American authors or Canadian authors, but the, and I know Canadian is British English too, but they are usually happy using American English.

[00:06:46] Louise Harris: Within the American English, there are different styles. There's the Chicago Manual style. There's the Associated Press style. There's the academic style. I tend to use the Associated Press style because that's what I was taught in college, so and most books do not want the academic, that's really just for the, the colleges when they're publishing papers and stuff.

[00:07:14] Louise Harris: So, most of, Most books are okay, or most authors, I should say, are okay with the Associated Press style, 

[00:07:24] Teddy Smith: so 

[00:07:25] Louise Harris: that's what I tend to use. So I'm 

[00:07:26] Teddy Smith: guessing,

[00:07:30] Teddy Smith: so I'm guessing line and copy, copy editing, they're the more basic functions, maybe they're the slightly cheaper ones if people are on a budget and they don't, aren't able to do that sort of full edit, whereas the developmental edit, it sounds like it's much more of a case of you're working with the editor in order to produce the final outcome.

[00:07:48] Louise Harris: That's true. A developmental editor is also known as a writing coach. And because and they, they are doing so much more and they're with you so much earlier in the writing process that, yes, they tend to get more money the copy editing and line editors. There, you. If you don't have a big budget and you just want to use a copy editor, you're probably okay with that.

[00:08:16] Louise Harris: The only issue is that you might not miss the plot holes that a developmental editor would find, or problems with the outline. Because the other important thing of editors, which we haven't talked about, is flow. And that's to make sure the story flows from sentence to pa sentence, paragraph to paragraph, and then chapter to chapter, all the way to the end.

[00:08:46] Louise Harris: And that's what a good, Comprehensive editor or developmental editor will be able to do for you is make sure it flows correctly, 

[00:08:57] Teddy Smith: right? Because when I read novels and stories you often at the acknowledgements of the back The the writer is usually praising their editor and saying thank you for helping me to get it.

[00:09:07] Teddy Smith: I'm guessing that is A classic developmental editor where they've worked with them throughout the whole process. Yes. Spotted things like plot holes, like you mentioned. So that plot holes, could that be things like where the dates don't line up or where you've said that someone lives at one address and maybe they've said something different address later on down the line.

[00:09:23] Teddy Smith: Is that a. 

[00:09:24] Louise Harris: Yes. Things like that. Also, my first novel. I I had a character in there who could turn himself invisible, and when I mentioned it to my husband, he said, well, when he turns invisible, what happens to the clothes? Something I didn't think about, but my engineer husband did. And so I had to put in the, there's a scene where the judge is asking that question so that I could tell the readers how, what happens to the clothes.

[00:09:55] Louise Harris: So things like that are plot holes that you don't always think about as an author. 

[00:10:01] Teddy Smith: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's amazing. And also you got, when I go on Reddit nowadays, there's a couple of books I love and I'm a member on there, some of their forums talking about the characters and you get the real book nerds go on there and say, Oh, there's a, There's a plot hole here where this doesn't match up to 

[00:10:15] Louise Harris: what's 

[00:10:16] Teddy Smith: going on and that must be quite embarrassing to get caught on.

[00:10:18] Louise Harris: And don't you just love when going to a movie and you see something glaring in the movie and you're like, well, you know, they could have just done this.

[00:10:30] Louise Harris: You don't want that in a book. You don't want it in a movie either, but it happens. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. 

[00:10:37] Teddy Smith: I remember seeing in, I remember seeing Game of Thrones, there were some scenes where people had left their Starbucks cups on the table and stuff like that. And so the editor hadn't done their job properly.

[00:10:46] Teddy Smith: Um, so when it comes to organizing and structuring a book do you have any advice for authors who are still in the writing phase? For example, if they are getting If they're thinking about getting a developmental editor, is that someone they should be hiring at the beginning of the process? They should definitely hire 

[00:11:06] Louise Harris: the developmental editor when they have the book idea, and maybe when they've created an outline.

[00:11:16] Louise Harris: Because if you're too far into the book and then you hire the person, you're going to have, it's going to be harder for the developmental editor to help because you have already gone too far. So yes, as early as possible, you want to have the developmental editor. In the process, 

[00:11:35] Teddy Smith: so, so say, for example, I've come up.

[00:11:38] Teddy Smith: We're talking about fiction books. So we'll come on to nonfiction in a bit, but talking about fiction books. If I've got an idea for a book and is it literally just the idea you might have a few bullet points or something sketched out, that would be enough to go to a developmental editor and say, you know, this is what I'm working with.

[00:11:53] Teddy Smith: I've got my invisible man. His clothes don't go invisible, but he's in trouble with the law. Let's go and work out this story. That's kind of where you go to the developmental editor and get them to brainstorm it with you. Is that how that works? 

[00:12:05] Louise Harris: You do it that early and you'll basically be collaborating on a finished product, or you could do it where you pretty much have an idea of how the plot's going to go, but you need help figuring out like the scenes from one to two, one to 20.

[00:12:24] Louise Harris: But yes, as early as you can in the writing process, you want to bring in the developmental editor so you wouldn't even need to have a. You mentioned some of the plotlines and, you know, where the story goes. Do you have any advice for how in depth that needs to be before you go and hire an editor? It doesn't have to be that in depth.

[00:12:48] Louise Harris: It just has to have some kind of framework that the editor can work from. If the editor doesn't, if you're just, hey, I have this idea and I need to flesh it out, then you're really hiring a coach. But as I said, a coach is often the same as a developmental editor too. But if you're an author and you know, for myself, I always know how my stories begin and I always know how they end.

[00:13:16] Louise Harris: And then as I write it, that's where the rest of it comes in. So if you have an idea that this is going to happen in the climax, but I don't know how to get there, then you want to talk to either a writing coach or a developmental editor to help you get there. And give you ideas and we'll flesh out some of those bullet points that you're talking about.

[00:13:44] Louise Harris: So, and often what happens is an author will start writing and then we'll have to change direction because. It won't flow the way they originally wanted it if they stick with what they had originally planned. So I recently, I recently worked with an author in Louisiana who wanted to have. basically a levee system that was controlling the Mississippi River and he wanted something to happen to that levee system.

[00:14:22] Louise Harris: And we went back and forth. I convinced him that we need more than just this one thing happening. We need to add more tension. So we ended up in the climax. A tornado took out a transformer. A big storm knocked out part of the structure, a power failure took out some of the other structure, and then the evil, the antagonist took out the rest of the structure.

[00:14:55] Louise Harris: So, there was many different elements in that climax that really kept the action. And you didn't know which one was gonna cause the problem. 

[00:15:06] Teddy Smith: Yeah. Nice. Have you got any good examples about where you've been a developmental editor or a book coach with someone and you've caught out some, you know, mistakes or you've, you've helped them to make the book better?

[00:15:19] Louise Harris: Almost every single one of my clients that their issue is fluff. They, and they don't really connect A to B or B to C, and so I'm always reorganizing it so it flows better. And so my advice would be read your own stuff. A lot of authors, after they write it, they don't want to read it because they think they're done.

[00:15:47] Louise Harris: You know, they think it's fine. But you as a If you print it and read it out loud, you can catch a lot of things on your own without hiring an editor. And then you can hear things that aren't, that are awkward, that aren't working right. And the other issue that I always have with clients is they want to keep things that I think are either not necessary or or slow down the story.

[00:16:17] Louise Harris: And so I'm always, I'm constantly arguing with them, like this isn't really going to work, you need to get rid of this. And because it's their baby, they don't want to get rid of it, and it's very hard for them to, they want everything is what they wrote, and they don't see why it's unnecessary. So I do a lot of explaining.

[00:16:41] Louise Harris: So that's something else that if you read it out loud. And before you go to an editor that you'll be able to see some of that stuff that it, Hey, we mentioned this several chapters ago. We don't have to have it again. It's it or this is slowing the story and the readers are stopping and you don't want readers to stop.

[00:17:02] Louise Harris: So in a story. 

[00:17:07] Teddy Smith: Yeah, it's really interesting because it's hearing you speak about it. I hadn't really thought about how in depth this process could be because my books are mostly in nonfiction. So the, the. Developmental editing probably doesn't come into it quite as much because I'm usually giving my experiences or, uh, stuff that I know about rather than creating like a story that needs to flow from A to B.

[00:17:29] Teddy Smith: So it's really fascinating here. You talk about 

[00:17:31] Louise Harris: nonfiction as well, but it's a different type of flow. It's more of a, well, it depends on the kind of nonfiction. A lot of books that I do are business books, which are helping salespeople or. I did a book on, back injuries and how to avoid, how to not use surgery to fix some of those back injuries.

[00:17:59] Louise Harris: And I also did a recent book on, it was a political book on things that are happening in the American government. So, In those two cases, the person came to me with a bunch of information, but they had no clue how to put it together. And I still had to provide them that comprehensiveness to get it to flow correctly and to put it together.

[00:18:26] Louise Harris: So, even though it's nonfiction, it still has to make sense when you're going from chapter to chapter. And, now the chapters might have different topics, that's fine, but if it If you have one chapter on education, you want to start the next chapter with, well, something, a transition. Something like, well, in the last chapter we talked about education, now we're going to talk about, and then you can transition to the next chapter.

[00:18:59] Louise Harris: So, that's kind of what I do on, for non fiction authors. That's 

[00:19:06] Teddy Smith: that again, that's really interesting. So if someone was a nonfiction writer, what, what level of information do you think they would need to come to you with in order to get help with that developmental editing? 

[00:19:20] Louise Harris: I've had clients all over the scale.

[00:19:22] Louise Harris: I've had authors like the two I just said, who had no clue how to put it together as a book. And then I was basically coaching them through the whole thing and reorganizing. And then I've had. authors who would come to me with a finished manuscript and basically I'm just doing line editing and making sure everything isn't awkward and, and I would, you know, make, still make sure it flows, but it's, Was it's a simpler process.

[00:19:50] Louise Harris: I'm basically just doing step four or five and then i've had authors where they needed help right from the beginning where i'm helping them create an outline and things like that And and then going from there. So all over the spectrum, 

[00:20:08] Teddy Smith: right? Yeah. No, of course. So talking about the editing, it sounds like it, especially with developmental editing, it's a different process for each client. It sounds like you speak to them and you understand what they need and give them a different level of service. So. You don't necessarily have a package that people can buy and say, Oh, this is exactly the same for everyone.

[00:20:29] Teddy Smith: It sounds like it would be slightly different for each author you worked with. 

[00:20:32] Louise Harris: I do customize for every, every client based on what they need from me. However, I do have packages as well. Like I will offer them certain editing and then maybe marketing too, or I'll offer them, Comprehensive editing or developmental editing and then They'll need line editing later, and so I'll offer them as part of the package as well, so the two different kinds of editing.

[00:21:02] Louise Harris: So, but it does depend on what the client has a budget for, and needs, and what, when I read their information. It's always good to, when you're assessing an editor, to give them something that they can read, like the first chapter, or and then they can figure out. Where to go from there or an outline or something that they can Assess the client as well as the client assessing the editor.

[00:21:33] Louise Harris: So the editor could do I I tend to do this. I don't not a lot of editors don't but I tend to give the first You know in chapter for free if they want to see how well I can edit I will do it and not Charge them for that, but a lot of editors will also charge them a small fee to do that test It all depends.

[00:21:58] Louise Harris: On the person in the how they do their editing, but as I said, I will edit a one chapter for free if they want to see my editing style, so Great. That's great. So you can get a good idea for sort of what the final product is going to look like before you can commit to the entire book. Right. I think that's really helpful.

[00:22:21] Teddy Smith: For authors who are maybe on a bit of a budget, are there any ways that they can do any of this themselves or reduce, uh, their spend on like the final editing process? I know you don't want to be, because you don't want to cut corners. You don't want to. 

[00:22:35] Louise Harris: Is printing it out and reading a hard copy of your book.

[00:22:38] Louise Harris: That's the first thing that every author should do. And they should do it whether they're going to hire an editor or not. Because you, you do not want to give an editor the first draft. You don't even want to give them a second draft. Third, maybe, but you want it as polished as possible. or you want as much information, you want to give the authors, I mean the editors, as much information as you have so that they can assess how to fix it.

[00:23:07] Louise Harris: That's the first thing, that they should read it out loud. The second thing they can do is Grammarly is a very good software program that'll allow you to catch some mistakes. The problem that I always have with using computer tools, though, is when the computer is programmed incorrectly, then it's going to say something is correct when it isn't correct.

[00:23:30] Louise Harris: And sometimes computers, again, with the words that sound the same but are spelled differently, the computer doesn't always pick up the misspelling and, or the incorrect word choice. And the computer doesn't you will think something if the, if the computer says something is correct that isn't, you will assume that it's correct when it isn't, and then you'll publish your book with errors.

[00:24:00] Louise Harris: So, so I suggest using the tools, but be cautious about it. They're not always accurate. And then you have to know what to do, but that's a way to save money. Another way. is using services like Upwork or Fiverr. You can usually find In inexpensive editing on those sites, they're not always good quality and they're not always going to work with you and collaborate with you, but there are options that way as well.

[00:24:35] Teddy Smith: I find the problem with using Grammarly is often if you, especially if you use the text correction is your text ends up sounding like it was written by Grammarly rather than written by you. So it's quite good for doing spellcheck. That's the If you get it to change. Yeah, if you get to change whole sentences, then it ends up being like a ends up sounding a bit like a corporation wrote it rather than you wrote it.

[00:24:58] Teddy Smith: You know, it's 

[00:24:59] Louise Harris: right. A core computer ease. And that's the other. That's a problem with AI as well. It sounds very computer like, and it doesn't sound like a human wrote it. So you have to be careful with that as well. And If Grammarly says a sentence is awkward, then you should step back and rewrite the sentence, not let Grammarly rewrite it, because like you said, it's going to be very stale and not at all like It should be so, and that's another way that editors work versus computers because editors can reword something so that it doesn't sound stale, you know, it all depends on author's budget.

[00:25:44] Louise Harris: And I do understand that authors don't have a lot of money.

[00:25:52] Teddy Smith: That's really interesting. Now one of the other things you talk about on your website is book compilation, and it sounds like a bit of a different service and I haven't seen that come up too often with other people. So if you tell us a bit about how that works and what sort of authors would benefit the most from it.

[00:26:07] Louise Harris: Yeah, so a book compilation is really two different services lumped into one. One service is if you're writing, if you're writing an anthology and you just want to contribute to a larger book, then the, then what I would do as editors, take out all those freelance authors and put them into one book and compile it into a book.

[00:26:34] Louise Harris: Another. The best way of using compilation is if you're an author of blogs and you want to take those blogs and make them into a book. I can compile it into a book and make it flow into one topic. So, and I've done that actually. I had I have a client in who handled, he has a company that provides press release distribution services.

[00:27:01] Louise Harris: And I wrote all these blogs for him for his website, but he wanted to take those blogs and make it into a book that he could hand out to potential clients and show the kind of work that we do. So, I took those blogs that we wrote and I compiled them into a book that he could give out. And then I did all of the editing and made it flow.

[00:27:26] Louise Harris: The thing with compilation is, you, each blog has its own headlines. So, you want to be able, you want to remove those headlines, but still make sure that it connects from the beginning to the end, so. So it's not as in depth of a service as I provide other clients, but it is something that I, that is easy to do.

[00:27:50] Louise Harris: And if you're someone who would like to have a book to show that you have an authority, but you don't know how to get started, this is a simple way of getting started is by using your blogs that you put on your website and creating a book out of it.

[00:28:08] Teddy Smith: Brilliant. Well, this has been, that's a really great service because loads of people I speak to have got blogs. I've got, I've got blogs, in fact, but I write on, and that would be great to take that content and put it into a book because it gets your information, your content you've already written.

[00:28:23] Teddy Smith: That means that you can sell it on multiple platforms. So you can sell it on Amazon, sell it even in bookshops. That's such a great service to offer. 

[00:28:30] Louise Harris: And it doesn't take as long. You could have it done probably in a week, a couple of weeks to have a book out from your blog. So 

[00:28:41] Teddy Smith: how would that work? Would I give you, for example, 10, 10 or 20, 000 words from my blog and say, could you organize this into a book for me?

[00:28:51] Louise Harris: Yes, that's, you would, you would send me links to the blogs or you would send me the actual Word documents of the blogs and then I would just do what I always do for other authors and just make a book out of it. Exactly. And again, make it sound, make it sure that it reads well and it's all one topic and that there, you know, there's little different chapters and stuff.

[00:29:14] Louise Harris: I, I, but yes, that's basically what I would do is just take the blogs and reformat it. It 

[00:29:22] Teddy Smith: sounds too good to be true in some ways. 

[00:29:27] Louise Harris: Well, as I said, I have done it for other clients and I have compiled anthologies as well. So I've compiled them for associations. There are usually the ones who want a contributor type of anthology that would need compilation because they have all their members are writing one chapter and so then they would want that into a book.

[00:29:54] Louise Harris: So those are the two usually non profit associations. Or people that want to turn their blogs into a book.

[00:30:07] Teddy Smith: Wow. That's amazing. I have to definitely go and check that service out. well, thank you so much for joining me today. I mean, that's, that's been great. I've learned so much about developmental editing, compiling books into different different your blogs into a book and things like that. There's a lot to learn for beginners and also for people who are maybe getting a bit more experienced and want to take their books to the next step.

[00:30:28] Teddy Smith: If people want to get in contact with you, where's the best place to do that? 

[00:30:30] Louise Harris: Well, my website is lastresearchandediting. com and it's A N D not ampersand. I also have a author page on Amazon, so you can do amazon. com slash author slash Louise Harris. My phone number is 480 370 3945 and then I also have email, which you can access through my website.

[00:30:57] Teddy Smith: Great. And we'll put the links to all that stuff in the show notes as well so people can, sorry, I said we'll put links to all that stuff in the show notes as well so that people can click on those links and then get in touch with you. 

[00:31:09] Louise Harris: I appreciate that. 

[00:31:10] Teddy Smith: Well, thank you very much for joining me. I really appreciate your time here.

[00:31:12] Teddy Smith: So just before you go, we have one final question and that is one book. What book do you recommend that everyone should be reading at the moment? 

[00:31:19] Louise Harris: Okay, well, I was going to recommend my client's books just to boost their sales, but I actually think that, Oh, The Places You Go by Dr. Seuss, it was actually given to, I think, my father on his 50th birthday it is a kid's book, but it's also an adult book, and when you read it as a kid, It makes sense as a kid, but then when you read it as an adult, you're like, Oh yeah, I should, take this advice and, and follow my dreams.

[00:31:51] Louise Harris: That's basically the point of it. Follow your dreams. So I'll leave you with that one because it's 

[00:31:58] Teddy Smith: great. Thanks. Those books, the Doc Seuss books are famous in the UK, but it's mostly the kids books. So that's interesting that you've got that one. So. 

[00:32:06] Louise Harris: Yeah, and again, it is written, it is written the same style for kids.

[00:32:10] Louise Harris: But it has different levels on that particular book. So it's a, it is a really good one to follow your dreams. Well, thank you very much for joining us, Louise, and we'll speak again soon. All right. Thank you. Have a good day. Thank you so much for tuning into the Publishing Performance Podcast. I really hope you found today's episode inspiring.

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