The Publishing Performance Show

Rebekah Haskell - The Art and Science of Book Cover Design (+ How to Find Amazing Done-For-You Covers)

• Teddy Smith • Episode 60

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Rebekah Haskell is the owner and lead designer at Vivid Covers, specializing in speculative fiction book covers. With expertise in both illustration and photo manipulation, she helps authors create genre-appropriate covers that connect with their target readers.


In this episode:

  • Genre-specific cover design principles
  • Differences between traditional and indie publishing covers
  • Research methods for effective cover design
  • Pre-made vs custom cover options
  • Visual tropes and genre expectations
  • Working process with authors
  • Thumbnail visibility importance


Resources mentioned:


Book recommendations:


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[00:00:00] Teddy Smith: A lot of people say you should never judge a book by its cover, but if you are a writer or a publisher, that's definitely the wrong thing to do because people do judge a book by its cover. And I've got data to show that people do that. You know, people do make first impressions based on what your book looks like.

[00:00:20] Teddy Smith: And so in this episode, we're talking to expert Rebecca Haskell, who's one of my favorite book cover designers. And in this episode, we're going to be talking about the elements of a good book cover, how it works for different tropes and for different types of books. And we've also got her secret weapon, which is pre made book designs that you can then take away, edit for your book and release.

[00:00:39] Teddy Smith: So you can get really professional book covers without having to go through the whole design process. So it's really interesting to hear how that whole design process works and how you can take a few little shortcuts. To make it a little bit cheaper, but also still get a really great result. In the end, Rebecca is a really, really interesting person.

[00:00:54] Teddy Smith: So she's really funny. So I think you're going to do a lot of laughing during this episode as well. So I hope you enjoy it and we'll see you soon. Hi everyone. And welcome to the publishing performance show. I'm delighted to be joined today by Rebecca Haskell, who is the owner and the lead designer of vivid covers.

[00:01:09] Teddy Smith: com. So thank you for joining me, Rebecca. 

[00:01:12] Rebekah Haskell: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Teddy. I appreciate it. 

[00:01:15] Teddy Smith: Great. So you guys are experts in creating covers for all sorts of genres, but mostly you specialize in fiction. So we're going to talk mostly about fiction today. So why don't we go a bit back to the basics of creating covers?

[00:01:27] Teddy Smith: So what does the process of getting a cover designed for a self published book look like? 

[00:01:33] Rebekah Haskell: So generally speaking, the process, the process is generally very much the same every single time, although the amount of, I think, education or back and forth that needs to happen with others is going to depend on how experienced they are.

[00:01:51] Rebekah Haskell: In the field. I've had authors come to me who are like, I have no idea what I'm doing. What do I expect? And then we can, we can chat a little bit about it. But generally speaking, author will contact me. They will let me know about the project that they're working on, that they're looking for a cover and roughly what they're looking for.

[00:02:07] Rebekah Haskell: And we will just have a little chat. Usually it's a via email. Sometimes I will have a client that wants to zoom together. Or, uh, have a phone call because that's just a way that they feel more comfortable communicating that their ideas. And it can be, well, it's a little trickier obviously to schedule that than to schedule an email.

[00:02:25] Rebekah Haskell: That's totally fine as well. Um, the important part is that the, the author feels comfortable. They're able to communicate what their ideas are and exactly what they're looking for. And we just talk a little bit about the project. Uh, I like to get visual examples from an author of kind of what they're looking for.

[00:02:46] Rebekah Haskell: I think that that's really helpful in bridging the gap between. word people and picture people. And a lot of times authors will be very much word people and artists like myself will very much be picture people. And so getting visual examples from an author of kind of what they're looking for. I know every author, I think, I think this is just, it's every author.

[00:03:08] Rebekah Haskell: We start thinking of what the cover is going to look like. The moment we start writing the book, you know, and so kind of getting some of those ideas of what they have in mind, what speaks to them, the things that attract them. And then we can kind of take that those preferences and try to fit it into what is more.

[00:03:28] Rebekah Haskell: of a marketing based approach to the cover, because I find that to be just overall significantly more effective if you can approach the cover from the standpoint, not necessarily of this is a visual representation of your story and more that this is a This is a reflection of who your audience is. I think the one thing that's, uh, that at this point, when we're having this discussion and kind of talking about what the expectations are for the project, the one thing that is the most difficult to get past, if an author really hasn't conceptualized who their audience is, who they're writing the book for, because ultimately the author is the only person that can answer that question.

[00:04:13] Rebekah Haskell: Um, Um, my clients know their books better than I ever will. And I actually do get the question. I get the question, are you going to read my book? The answer is almost always no. That doesn't mean I've never read a client's book. I have read clients books before, but that was for fun because I was intrigued by the project.

[00:04:34] Rebekah Haskell: Um, but as far as research for doing the work, I do find it. counterproductive to read the actual text. I actually, I vastly dislike it when I receive excerpts of the book from the author as guidance for various things. Um, for instance, if I'm asking, how do you want me to illustrate a character? And they send me an excerpt of how that character is introduced in the book.

[00:05:03] Rebekah Haskell: Listen, I just want. Here's the reason why, it's because prose tends to not be super prescriptive, it doesn't tend to be really dry, I mean, that's what we're trying to avoid, right? We don't have a dossier. You're trying to evoke something with the prose. I don't want to be evoked. I want a dossier. I want to know what the height, weight, build, skin color, hair color, you know, what style of clothing they're wearing.

[00:05:30] Rebekah Haskell: I just, I just want a list. Just the facts, you know? So, um, I really appreciate it when authors will have just Those, they're bare, those bare bones things for me and trying to interpret an entire text. I think it gets in the, well, first of all, the ROI on reading a book before starting the project. If I have to sink six to 10 hours into reading a novel, um, that may or may not be to my taste prior to beginning on the cover.

[00:06:03] Rebekah Haskell: Uh, obviously that's going to. Massively lengthen the project. It's going to make it more expensive is what it's going to do, but also I don't think it's helpful because that distance is almost necessary. I think you really do want to have kind of an eagle's eye view of, of the story and the project itself in order to really be successful in generalizing the project.

[00:06:28] Rebekah Haskell: I think that, that, that active generalizing is Difficult for authors because they're so close to their project. Everything feels really, really important. I think it's the same struggle that they have when trying to, uh, formulate a blurb, you know, the, the back cover copy or the, the, the marketing texts that you're going to put up on Amazon, trying to decide what to include and what to omit.

[00:06:55] Rebekah Haskell: So I don't find it useful to read the actual text prior to going into the project. Um, I really do love having a nice. concise and clear overview. Um, if that's something that the author can provide, there are definitely cases where they don't feel comfortable providing that. And we can kind of go back and forth on it and kind of try to distill the project down to what its essence is so that we can figure out what's going to, what's going to.

[00:07:23] Rebekah Haskell: I don't want to say represent the story the best on the cover, but represent who is supposed to be buying this story. If that makes sense. 

[00:07:31] Teddy Smith: Yeah. That's quite an important, uh, thing to talk about, isn't it? You know, the difference between who's going to buy it and who you're just representing on the cover.

[00:07:38] Teddy Smith: Because, you know, say for example. An obvious one, like Harry Potter. I mean, you've got a picture of Harry Potter on the front. If you had him in sort of, uh, dark, like with loads of girls around him or something like that, it would be completely wrong to the, to the idea of the book being for children where you've got that kind of cartoony picture on the front.

[00:07:54] Teddy Smith: So yeah, that is really important. Who's actually going to be buying it now when a customer comes to you or a client comes to you and they've got an idea for a book, what level of information would you need in order to buy it? 

[00:08:09] Rebekah Haskell: I think the most basic information that I need Is I need to know what genre it is.

[00:08:16] Rebekah Haskell: I need to know the basic genre and roughly what the, the plot is just, just broadly, just broadly what the premise of the story is. So to be perfectly honest, I have plenty of clients that come to me with just that back cover text, that, that little blurb of marketing text that will give me. Usually that will give me everything that I need for a cover.

[00:08:42] Rebekah Haskell: Um, I might need to get a few more details about specific things so that I can make sure that I'm accurate visually when I'm creating settings or illustrating characters and that sort of thing. But essentially it is the genre simply because there are The way there are genre conventions in stories, there are also genre conventions on the cover.

[00:09:05] Rebekah Haskell: And generally speaking, and I know that a lot of writers struggle with this because writers in general tend to be, tend to be unusual. They tend to be unusual readers. Writers, um, by and large tend to be omnivorous readers and they, they. They are a little peculiar in their reading habits and in their purchasing habits.

[00:09:28] Rebekah Haskell: And one of the things that I think is really useful from a marketing standpoint as an author is to try to distance yourself a little bit from your personal preferences and what you are assuming your audience's preferences are. By and large, the data shows that readers already know what kind of book they're looking for.

[00:09:50] Rebekah Haskell: When they, you know, go on Amazon and start looking through the bestseller lists or whatever they're, they already know what they're looking for and they already know they have, they have already been trained basically by the genre that they prefer. Most people read in just one genre. Maybe in a second one, you know, as well, but most readers have primarily one genre that they spend the majority of their time in, and they have certain expectations for what they're looking for on the cover that are going to cue them into, this is the book for me.

[00:10:28] Rebekah Haskell: This is not the book for me, et cetera, et cetera. Readers by and large are looking for. A similar emotional experience to one that they have already had. They're looking for the same but different very much. And so there are certain visual cues that they are searching for on the covers of the books to cue them into this is similar to something I have already read and loved.

[00:10:55] Rebekah Haskell: And so this might be The book for me. And if, if we aren't kind of, if we aren't cued into what those, uh, symbols are and what your audience in particular is responding to and recognizing as this is the book for me, you're going to miss your audience completely. I actually. I tell the story of this gentleman that I've had and, and obviously symbols have a lot of power.

[00:11:21] Rebekah Haskell: We're very, we're very symbol driven as a species. Um, that's, it's a really powerful way to communicate. I had a client years ago who was writing a very, it was a very gritty, grownup science fiction novel. And he was adamant that he needed a butterfly on the cover. And, uh, it needed to be a very prominent symbol on the cover.

[00:11:50] Rebekah Haskell: And, because in his story, the symbol of the butterfly kind of Symbolized his character's inner journey, her metamorphosis from the beginning to, you know, her emotional journey throughout the book. And what I tried to communicate to him at that time was that the symbol of the butterfly is in particular, the butterfly that he had in mind, which was a lot of pastel colors, um, was going to send some really mixed messages on the cover of the book.

[00:12:22] Rebekah Haskell: About who the audience was, what the tone was, to have that symbol be so dominant on the cover of a very dark, gritty, grown up sci fi novel. There were going to be a lot of people who would really enjoy a gritty, dark, Grown up sci fi novel who were gonna see that prominent symbol on the cover and think oh, that's not for me That's not meant for me and they are gonna move past it Meanwhile people who were in a place that they would respond well to that symbol.

[00:12:55] Rebekah Haskell: We're gonna get into the book And think, what the hell is this, which obviously is not, you know, the reaction that you're looking for. Symbols have a lot of power and they have different meanings to different people, depending on what they're looking for in a book. And if you can key into that, into what your specific readers respond really well to on the cover of a novel, your, your ability to.

[00:13:22] Rebekah Haskell: Get your book into the hands of the right readers is just it's gonna be increased exponentially. 

[00:13:28] Teddy Smith: Mm hmm So you're talking about like genre specific tropes. Is that a good way of describing it? 

[00:13:35] Rebekah Haskell: Yeah No, that's a that's a good way to describe it visual tropes. Yeah 

[00:13:39] Teddy Smith: There's some really obvious ones, which are probably quite stereotypical, you know, like a romance book has flowers and it's white or pink or, you know, that those sort of like quite stereotypical things.

[00:13:49] Teddy Smith: Whereas the sci fi might be quite dark with spaceships and things like that. Are there any key tropes that https: otter. ai Just about how it looks. You know, some of it's more about like the colors and the, the, uh, the style of the, the pictures on the front cover. 

[00:14:04] Rebekah Haskell: Almost every single genre is going to have tropes down to the color palette.

[00:14:10] Teddy Smith: Yeah. 

[00:14:10] Rebekah Haskell: Um, now these things do change over time, so that is something to be aware of. I do think a lot of people come into the. Uh, publishing space thinking I'm going to get one cover and that's going to be my cover for the next 20 years. If you're selling, if you publish a book and you're selling it in 20 years, I guarantee you, unless you have just given up on it, given up on trying to sell it, it's probably going to have a different cover.

[00:14:38] Rebekah Haskell: Um, just because the, these expectations and, and, and the, the tropes that your audience is responding to do change, not super fast. Not super fast. You're not going to have to buy a new cover every year, but it's not uncommon even in the traditional Uh, publishing field, uh, for, uh, a book over its lifetime to have a number of different covers as it's kind of honing in and refining, uh, it's marketing approach towards its audience.

[00:15:07] Rebekah Haskell: So some of the things that there are some genres where the visual tropes that the audience of that genre responds to. Um, are more specific than others. For instance, uh, thrillers, uh, tend to have a very, very specific look to the covers. There's really not a whole lot of variation. One of the ways to kind of keep tabs on what's going on in a genre and where those visual tropes are and what that audience is responding to right now is to keep an eye on the bestseller lists on Amazon.

[00:15:44] Rebekah Haskell: If you will go to the bestseller list for a specific category and subcategory on Amazon, you have to do a little work. When you do this, you have to do a little prep work. What I like to do is I take screenshots of like the top 50. Then you need to go in and you need to remove anything that's miscategorized 

[00:16:01] Teddy Smith: on 

[00:16:05] Rebekah Haskell: Amazon.

[00:16:05] Rebekah Haskell: You know, that's a. Fair number of things, anything that doesn't quite fit in that category that somebody has used as a secondary category, or maybe just a way to get that bestseller tag in a smaller, you know what I'm saying? 

[00:16:17] Teddy Smith: It's basically Atomic Habits on the top of all of the, on top of every single leaderboard.

[00:16:21] Teddy Smith: Atomic Habits is there for some reason, you'll be in sci fi and Atomic Habits is number one. 

[00:16:25] Rebekah Haskell: Um, I remember my husband when he first started publishing, uh, first started publishing in, uh, What was it? The majority of his work, his earlier work is in the superhero category and he would get so frustrated finding all of this paranormal romance in the superhero category and he would get into back and forth with paranormal romance authors online.

[00:16:52] Rebekah Haskell: You're like, what are you doing? And they're like, well, they have powers. So technically they are, so I guarantee you anybody looking. We're superhero fiction is not looking for paranormal romance. It's not what they're 

[00:17:05] Teddy Smith: saying. You're saying you look at the top sellers and you remove the ones that are not relevant.

[00:17:13] Rebekah Haskell: Yes, exactly. Anything that's miscategorized. And also you need to remove anything that is traditionally published. The traditional. Traditional publishing industry, a side of the industry, uh, has access to a marketing infrastructure that is completely wildly different than what independent authors or even small publishers who use the Uh, independent, uh, publishing Avenue, basically.

[00:17:46] Rebekah Haskell: Um, and I'm, I'm not even, I've been talking about, for instance, Athon books, big publisher right now. I mean, they are one of the top sellers in the genres that they, uh, sell on Amazon. So not terribly small, but they are using those independent publishing avenues. So, uh, I'm talking about like more of the big six and more the traditional, well, the big five now, but the, the traditional model of doing things, there's a completely different path to the market for them than there is for anybody who is using the independent publishing model.

[00:18:24] Rebekah Haskell: And because of that, their approach to covers is very different. And It's, it's not something that is going to be useful for an independently published author to model their process after. So you wanna remove all of those covers from the bestseller list as well. That's interesting that you say that 

[00:18:44] Teddy Smith: about the traditionally published books.

[00:18:47] Teddy Smith: 'cause you, I, I'll be honest, you're the first person I've heard say that, which I think is an interesting way that you're approaching it because a lot of people say, oh, go to bookshops, see what's on the shelves, and see what's selling well. What you're saying is if you are self published you've really got to think a bit more like a self published author and be a bit more independent in your thought.

[00:19:04] Teddy Smith: Is that what you're saying? 

[00:19:05] Rebekah Haskell: Absolutely. Here's the thing is, tradition, the traditional published model, publishers have always, they've never been selling to readers. They've always been selling to booksellers. It's a different. It's a different customer that they are, um, porting when they are choosing their marketing, like what kind of words they put on the back, what kind of images they put on the front, the size of the books, the colors that they use.

[00:19:33] Rebekah Haskell: It's all very geared to those physical books and how they present in a physical space. Whereas when you are selling to directly to a reader, uh, you will notice that, uh, traditionally published, uh, traditionally published book covers generally tend to be a lot more muted in color palette. They don't have as much bright colors.

[00:20:00] Rebekah Haskell: They don't have as much contrast. Uh, they don't necessarily have as much excitement and action on the covers. A lot of times they'll, they will have. Much more, um, I want to say, and as a designer, this can be sometimes a little frustrating because the traditionally published, uh, books have freedom to explore certain design styles that just don't translate as well with the direct, uh, uh, author to reader.

[00:20:28] Rebekah Haskell: Tract that's happening for the independent, uh, uh, independent published, uh, authors, especially because the majority of books being sold by independent authors are ebooks. That's the majority of them across all genres. Yeah. Now, there are fiction. Yes. Um, obviously, uh, nonfiction is a completely different game.

[00:20:50] Rebekah Haskell: Um, for fiction, the majority of those books that are being sold are. 

[00:20:57] Teddy Smith: Ebooks. 

[00:20:57] Rebekah Haskell: I'm so sorry. 

[00:20:58] Teddy Smith: Ebooks on Kindle. 

[00:20:59] Rebekah Haskell: Yes, exactly. Our, our electronic and because of that, the way it has changed the way, the way that, uh, that readers shop for it, basically it's going to be on a device about this big sometimes on their Kindle, but those Kindles are so slow at the best of times as 

[00:21:16] Teddy Smith: well.

[00:21:17] Rebekah Haskell: Right, exactly. And, um, the majority of them are still black and white. So a lot of people will look for them on their phone. So you've got a device, maybe that yay big, okay? Let's say your thumbnail is about that big, maybe. That changes the way that we have to create our Um, we, a lot, a lot more contrast than you're going to have on a traditionally published cover.

[00:21:45] Rebekah Haskell: Uh, the thumbnail is so important. If I look at a thumbnail for a book and I can't tell roughly what's happening, that's a problem because for a lot of readers, that's the only glimpse of your cover. They're ever going to have is that tiny little, little thumbnail. And if you can't get past that, You, you, you can't sell them.

[00:22:05] Rebekah Haskell: You don't, you don't have any other room to persuade them to buy your book, you know, they never even get to that introductory text. So there's a lot of difference in the way a traditionally published book will be marketed and the way a Independently published fiction book will be marketed. So once you have removed all of the traditionally published covers and the miscategorized covers from a specific genre, what you want to do is you want to look at what's left.

[00:22:38] Rebekah Haskell: And this is all, these are all bestsellers. This is a preselected list. And the, the, the fun thing about the Amazon bestseller list is it's been preselected by sales. So the readers have made the decision of what's on this list, and you can see in real time what they're responding to. You'll, you'll go to thrillers, and you'll notice psychological thrillers tend to be a rundown house, or a, a lonely looking, you know, natural, Vista in kind of desaturated monochromatic, uh, colors.

[00:23:15] Rebekah Haskell: And it's going to have really big bold lettering with usually a very catchy title. Um, the, the, the titles are super important for thrillers. Um, if you're looking more at, let's say a spy thriller or a, uh, uh, A crime thriller. You're going to have, generally speaking, a suited gentleman running into a big background.

[00:23:42] Rebekah Haskell: It's also going to be, going to be, uh, very monochromatic. Reds, blacks, grays. Very popular in that genre. The thriller, I do find that the thriller, uh, genre tends to be the most prescriptive. Not the most, but one of the most prescriptive genres. This is what the readers expect. Just give them this over and over again.

[00:24:04] Rebekah Haskell: Just give them a really good example of what they're expecting and it'll do its job. You know what I'm saying? I think another one that also has some pretty standardized rules are the romance genres. Now each romance subcategory has its own little set of rules. Uh, so there's, if you're, if you're publishing those categories.

[00:24:26] Rebekah Haskell: It's great to do that research as well. But one of the examples of change that I've seen is in the urban fantasy genre, I have watched it changed from, for, for years, it was some really badass looking heroine in a leather jacket with some magic in one hand, maybe, you know, or a weapon, um, 

[00:24:47] Teddy Smith: against 

[00:24:49] Rebekah Haskell: some urban background.

[00:24:50] Rebekah Haskell: It's going to be dark blues. Um, maybe some orange, a lot of black, very deep colors, usually a moon in the background somewhere, especially if it has some werewolf vibes. There has been a big shift from that to very text based covers where it's going to be a background with leaves or vines or thorns or something, and then a very prominent, uh, Title, so more of us like inanimate, less character based, more text based, maybe the symbol of the series or something like that.

[00:25:28] Rebekah Haskell: So I've seen a big shift in that genre in particular. So genres do change. I'm still waiting for the thriller genre to change, but it might take some while. Thrillers also have been very, uh, traditionally published dominant for a very long time as well. And I do think that kind of slows down this cycle when, when it's more publisher to book seller to, to reader, I feel like the shift is much slower than when it's from author to reader.

[00:25:58] Rebekah Haskell: I think that the shorter that, that, that, um, What am I, what am I saying? The shorter that line is between the, who is producing the fiction and who is consuming the fiction is, I think the quicker the market tends to turn. Does that make sense? 

[00:26:17] Teddy Smith: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean, this is absolutely fascinating. I thought we were going to talk about covers generally, but this has become a bit of a philosophical and instruction into what covers work well for best genres.

[00:26:27] Teddy Smith: I think it's absolutely fascinating. Um, you clearly know. Exactly what you're talking about. Um, one of the things I do my best. Yeah, definitely. I mean, one of the things I noticed. So on your website, and we'll come to this in a sec with the pre made covers, but you've got hundreds of examples of covers that you've created.

[00:26:44] Teddy Smith: On your website and talking about the tropes and the things that you have on your website and also talking back to our first question where we ask if someone came to you with a book idea of what they should have and you were talking about the characters. Now, some books have the characters on the front.

[00:26:58] Teddy Smith: Some might have something else on the front, such as a scene. Is there a way that you would help an author to decide whether they should be having like a scene or they should be having the front, the main character or a different character on the cover? 

[00:27:12] Rebekah Haskell: What I would do primarily is look at what's happening in the genre.

[00:27:16] Rebekah Haskell: Um, are those primarily character based? Um, that also the way that you handle the character can be different, uh, depending on some genres. I do a lot of work in science fiction and fantasy. In science fiction, For quite a while, we didn't have any characters on the front of those covers. It was all spaceships.

[00:27:34] Rebekah Haskell: It was spaceships all day long, every day. I do feel like that is shifting a little bit away from just, uh, I feel like the readers got a little bored. Like, show us a little bit more of your world than just whatever spaceship, you know, um, Uh, spoke to you at the moment, uh, but, uh, so we're seeing more characters on a more humanoid characters.

[00:28:02] Rebekah Haskell: A lot of times it's still going to be like a person in space armor or something like that, uh, on the covers of those. Uh, science fiction novels, uh, in fantasy, uh, generally speaking, you, you, you can either have those symbol based inanimate covers that I was talking about in urban fantasy, or you can have, I do think I see a difference between sword and sorcery, which does tend to be sword and sorcery as a subgenre of fantasy tends to be more tight in tighter POV, smaller stakes.

[00:28:36] Rebekah Haskell: It's, uh. It's all about the, the life and death of the specific, uh, primary characters of the story. Whereas epic fantasy, for instance, is much more zoomed out. It's much more big world altering stakes. Generally speaking, more points of view. Think, think, I kind of feel like George RR Martin sort of married those two genres, sub genres pretty well because he had that very tight in, are they going to live?

[00:29:00] Rebekah Haskell: Are they going to die? But then he had, he had the big picture as well. With Sword and Sorcery, I do feel like that's reflected in how prominent the character is. Whereas in Epic Fantasy, you still see a lot of big sweeping vistas and huge fortresses in the distance. Maybe a, I don't know, a dragon in the sky.

[00:29:19] Rebekah Haskell: And then you'll have the character, this little character, kind of overlooking this enormous vista. And it kind of communicates what the scope of the book is. Um, so when we're kind of making that decision about Uh, do we put the character on the front of the book? Uh, who, which character are we going to go for?

[00:29:39] Rebekah Haskell: Generally speaking, when you're choosing the character, I think it's most common to put the main character on the book. But you can also put the villain on the book. It really depends on who's the most visually interesting. I do think sometimes you have to look at it from the point of view, not necessarily of what is the most accurate to the story, and, and pivot towards what's the most visually interesting part of the story, if that makes sense.

[00:30:07] Rebekah Haskell: Um, but we will definitely look at what are people in this genre, purchasing this genre, what are they responding to the most right now when we're making that decision. 

[00:30:16] Teddy Smith: Brilliant. Yeah, that's really good advice. Um, now I know you've got two services on your website. So you obviously, what we've been talking about now is completely customized services where people come to you with their finished book and they say, this is the kind of thing I'm looking for.

[00:30:31] Teddy Smith: These are the characters. And then together you work together to make a book cover, but also, which I think is quite unique and it's great for people who are. maybe on a bit more of a budget, you've got pre made covers which cover all the different genres like the sci fi and um, fantasy and the sci fi fantasy and those genres that you mostly cover and you've got hundreds on your website for people to choose from.

[00:30:51] Teddy Smith: So what made you get started in making those? 

[00:30:56] Rebekah Haskell: Let me interject something real quick before I answer that question. If you have any viewers who are considering custom work, it is probably best to start that process while you're in the middle of the book, rather than waiting until the book is completely done.

[00:31:14] Rebekah Haskell: Unless you were a discovery writer and you don't know what shape the book is going to have until it's finished. And I understand that's fairly common, especially for newer authors. So if you want to wait until the book is completely set in stone before you move toward the cover phase, that's fine. But keep in mind that custom work takes.

[00:31:34] Rebekah Haskell: It takes weeks. There's a lot of time there. So if you're going to finish your book completely and then engage in the cover process, most artists, you're going to have to wait the, generally speaking, I book about two or three months in advance. So anybody who's. Booking my services right now for custom work.

[00:31:53] Rebekah Haskell: We're going to be starting in January, most likely. Um, and then it's going to take a certain number of weeks to complete the project. So just keep in mind that there is a, there's a, there's a lag time there. Before. Between when you contact the, the artists that you want to work with and when you're actually going to have a cover that's ready for upload.

[00:32:15] Rebekah Haskell: I have a lot of clients that they will come to me as soon as they have the idea for the book. Um, I have clients who feel like the cover is really helpful for them in helping inspire the story. There are some people who prefer to be completely done with it before they begin the process. Most of my clients, it's somewhere in the middle.

[00:32:34] Rebekah Haskell: They'll be maybe halfway through the book when they initiate that cover process so that by the time that they're done, it's gone through editing. They're working on the formatting. They'll actually have a cover in their possession for freemades, which you asked about. Um, the reason I actually started offering premades before I started offering custom work, I started.

[00:32:56] Rebekah Haskell: Uh, doing covers back in 2013, 2014, and it was because I was part of the writer community. I, I write, um, I have not published anything because I've gotten a little sidetracked 

[00:33:08] Teddy Smith: with 

[00:33:11] Rebekah Haskell: what really honestly has become my dream job, which is covers. And I, but I had a lot of friends in the author community as the independent publishing movement.

[00:33:24] Rebekah Haskell: sort of began and started to grow, they had books that they wanted to publish and they needed covers. And I had a graphic design background. Now I had a lot of learning to do there at that beginning because I thought, Oh, Hey, I'll just put something that looks nice. It'll be fine. And to be perfectly honest, the very beginning of the independent publishing.

[00:33:43] Rebekah Haskell: Uh, movement in the industry was the perfect time to not know a whole lot about it because we were all figuring it out uh, but yeah, I started creating first covers for those friends and then I There were a few other provide people who were providing sort of covers on specs so we would design the cover and say hey, do you have a Uh romance novel that you that might fit this or do you have a?

[00:34:08] Rebekah Haskell: Thriller novel. And we would basically try to shoot straight down the line of those genre tropes as they existed at the time. And it's sort of like purchasing clothing off the rack rather than having it tailored to you. Maybe the sleeves are a little bit too long, maybe just a little bit, or maybe, you know, it's a little bit big in the center here.

[00:34:29] Rebekah Haskell: And obviously you can always go to the artist and see if you have it tailored. It's probably just, uh, for those premades, it's usually an additional cost to have it customized because the whole point of that premade is it's much, uh, there's a, there's much smaller time investment required for me to create a cover on spec than to me to do it to somebody else's expectations.

[00:34:50] Rebekah Haskell: I 

[00:34:53] Teddy Smith: was going to ask about that. So with the premade covers, so I'm looking at one now and I, which I like the most from your premades, which is called the King's Ranger. And it's got a. Guy that looks a bit like Legolas with a bone arrow. It looks really cool. I like that one too. 

[00:35:04] Rebekah Haskell: Yeah, 

[00:35:05] Teddy Smith: but say my book wasn't called The King's Ranger, it was called something else.

[00:35:08] Teddy Smith: Would I be able to change the name or? 

[00:35:09] Rebekah Haskell: The titles are completely just contextual. The titles, that is, I have sold a few pre mades where they're like, I like that title. Let's keep it, but the vast majority of them, the vast majority, we will change the, the title. the typography to match their title. 

[00:35:28] Teddy Smith: Yeah.

[00:35:28] Rebekah Haskell: Yeah. Just like it won't say vivid covers on the front either. It'll have your author name. 

[00:35:33] Teddy Smith: Yeah. 

[00:35:33] Rebekah Haskell: Yeah. Cool. 

[00:35:36] Teddy Smith: Yeah. That was, I just wanted to just check that one. Um, but they're really good. I mean, you could definitely take a lot of these and just run straight with them. If people want to customize them a little bit, is that possible?

[00:35:46] Rebekah Haskell: Oh yeah, absolutely. Generally speaking. It depends on what the customization that they're looking for is. Uh, there are certain, and it's hard to know if you're not an artist, what customizations are. It's so funny. It always cracks me up a little bit when I have a client come to me and say, Hey, can you make this change?

[00:36:06] Rebekah Haskell: Um, It shouldn't take you much time. And I'm like, well, 

[00:36:10] Teddy Smith: how do you know you do it? 

[00:36:13] Rebekah Haskell: I do remember once I had a client's tiny change. Well, sometimes it'll seem like a big thing. He's like, I don't know if this is possible. I'm like, this'll take me 15 minutes. Don't worry. Um, but there have been, there was another instance.

[00:36:24] Rebekah Haskell: He was like, I've got this tiny chain to just make this little, little tiny spot. And it was just a little tiny part of the image, but there were like 74 layers in that. In that, um, in the digital, yeah, in the image and I had to go through and make the change of every single layer. It took me like, you know, the better part of an hour just to change that little tiny thing there in the corner.

[00:36:46] Rebekah Haskell: So the best thing that you can do is just ask. Um, there are plenty of changes that I'll make. Uh, if someone, uh, purchase purchases a premade and says the ship is blue, I'd really like it if the ship was red. Easily done. That is not a problem at all in most cases. Um, and that won't incur any additional charge.

[00:37:06] Rebekah Haskell: I did have a gentleman who purchased a series of, uh, of covers and he wanted some more significant changes. He wanted the weapon that the character was using to be changed out. He wanted some things about the background changed and I just issued him an estimate for the work. So just based on my hourly rate, I estimated how long it would take me and that's what he paid.

[00:37:30] Rebekah Haskell: for the changes. 

[00:37:31] Teddy Smith: Great. I mean, I think it's a great service. So if you are writing books in sci fi, uh, sci fi fantasy and also fantasy, I definitely recommend checking out those, the three, those are the three genres that you mostly work in. 

[00:37:44] Rebekah Haskell: Mostly anything that falls underneath the speculative fiction umbrella.

[00:37:49] Rebekah Haskell: So anything. in the realm of science fiction, fantasy, urban fantasy. I do some thrillers and some historical fantasy as well. Generally speaking, because I'm an illustrator, I mostly stick to the genres where illustration is more common. Now, obviously thrillers is not one of those, but I pull out my, my photo manipulation skills for that one.

[00:38:11] Teddy Smith: So, I mean, this has been a really good conversation. 

[00:38:14] Rebekah Haskell: Yeah, absolutely. In general, if someone is looking, I do get this question all the time. I get the, can you do this? At this point in my career, I can, I can, I can, I've done almost everything at this point. Um, and I kind of specialized in the things that I just enjoy the most, but in general, I do recommend if you are looking for a new artist, uh, to do your cover, make sure that they have an example of what it is you want.

[00:38:42] Rebekah Haskell: Actually in their portfolio, you want to have, you want to have visual representation of the type of cover that you're looking for in their portfolio before you hire someone. It's the safest way to do that. 

[00:38:55] Teddy Smith: Great. I mean, that's really good advice. Um, I've loved this conversation. I want to speak to you again about covers.

[00:39:00] Teddy Smith: I'm really looking forward to meeting you in person so you can chat about covers some more. 

[00:39:03] Rebekah Haskell: Yeah, it'll be great. It's one of my favorite topics. Yeah, 

[00:39:07] Teddy Smith: I can tell. I've 

[00:39:08] Rebekah Haskell: told you before. You've given someone a talk about this for six hours, I am your woman. 

[00:39:15] Teddy Smith: The cover's queen. You should get, trademark it. Well, thank you so much.

[00:39:21] Teddy Smith: Um, I don't think I've got any more questions. I think we've literally covered everything. I think that's been really great. I mean, people can really take that and there's loads of stuff, uh, actionable tips they can take away. Now people want to get in touch with you. Obviously you've got vivid covers. com.

[00:39:34] Teddy Smith: Is that the best place for them to get in touch with you or generally social media? There's 

[00:39:38] Rebekah Haskell: a, there's a form on the website. I also, my work email is design at vivid covers. com. Um, I'm pretty sure you can look me up on Facebook. Uh, but yeah. Design at this vivid covers. com is the most immediate direct line to me.

[00:39:54] Rebekah Haskell: And I am open to if anybody has any questions about the process, I do really enjoy kind of the author education side of my job. I really, really enjoy it. Um, I actually wrote a book a few years back. This was my night of my 2020 project and this is it. It's called cover your book by R Haskell. And it basically just takes you through the process of Where do you start?

[00:40:19] Rebekah Haskell: Where do you find a designer? How do you know they're the right one? How do you avoid anything scammy? You know, how do you approach the designer? How do you, um, communicate your vision effectively? If problems arise, how do you address those? Um, I, I've actually, I have some sample emails in here of how to tell a designer that the draft they sent you is no good.

[00:40:42] Rebekah Haskell: A lot of the authors that I've worked with and that I know are a little bit conflict diverse and they really struggle with that part of it about how do I tell them that their art's bad? I don't want to hurt their feelings. Really clear communication between you and your service providers is really essential for you guys both being happy.

[00:41:00] Rebekah Haskell: And so I, I cover all of that. There's resources on how to get more information from other designers. There's a plea to please stop crowdsourcing your covers. On, uh, social media, please stop doing this, however, by committee is never the right choice. Um, but anyway, so anybody who is completely new to this process and doesn't know where to start, uh, that is, uh, there's a lot of really good information in there, but on a personal level, if anybody just wants to email me, send a DM.

[00:41:30] Rebekah Haskell: I'm more than happy to help. 

[00:41:32] Teddy Smith: Brilliant. Has anyone ever used your example emails to tell you they don't like your cover that you've designed? 

[00:41:38] Rebekah Haskell: I'm waiting for the day. I'm waiting for the day because that will just be a joy when asked. 

[00:41:42] Teddy Smith: Yeah. You're going to get people doing that now when they do it. Well, thank you.

[00:41:49] Teddy Smith: My clients 

[00:41:49] Rebekah Haskell: are always happy. 

[00:41:52] Teddy Smith: Well, thank you so much, Rebecca. I've really enjoyed that. Um, I appreciate you having 

[00:41:55] Rebekah Haskell: me on Teddy. 

[00:41:56] Teddy Smith: Yeah, no worries. So just one last question before we go. What is the one book you recommend everyone should be reading? 

[00:42:02] Rebekah Haskell: Okay, so I have two I have two that I want to tell you about the first is I've got I've got to check the the title here And make sure it's the right title.

[00:42:16] Rebekah Haskell: There we go. This was revolutionary for me as a business book, just especially as someone who is a little ADHD, as a lot of us creatives are, I have noticed there's a lot of us in the writing and art space. Um, it's this book called Never Check Email in the Morning. By Julie Morgenstern, just from, especially as somebody who is self employed, who my day goes the way that I dictate that it goes, and I know that a lot of authors resonate with that.

[00:42:47] Rebekah Haskell: This was revolutionary for me in just conceptualizing how to approach work when it was completely 100 percent underneath my control. So never check email in the morning. Love that book was hugely helpful to me as a business owner and as a self employed freelancer. So really recommend that. I also am a fantasy nut.

[00:43:10] Rebekah Haskell: I love reading fantasy and John Beers's Mage Errant series is the most recent thing that has just blown my mind. One of the most unique. And rich and well thought out and very, very interesting settings that I have experienced. I feel like up there with Brandon Sanderson as far as the uniqueness of his setting, really, really interesting characters and concepts.

[00:43:40] Rebekah Haskell: I read all, I think there's seven books in the series. I read it all in one month, which is for me is quite a lot. It's quite a lot because I have five children. And a job. So that's really, really, really grabbed me. John beers, mage errant, just phenomenal. 

[00:44:00] Teddy Smith: So you sold, I'm going to go and get it now. Well, thanks Becca.

[00:44:05] Teddy Smith: It's been great chatting to you and looking forward to meeting in person soon. 

[00:44:08] Rebekah Haskell: Appreciate it, Teddy. Thanks so much for having me. so 

[00:44:10] Teddy Smith: much for tuning into the publishing performance podcast. I really hope you found today's episode inspiring. I love chatting to authors, writers, and people in the publishing world.

[00:44:20] Teddy Smith: Now, just before we wrap up, let me tell you about Publishingformance, the number one platform for authors who want to increase Amazon book sales, but are not really sure where to start. Now, this show is all about helping you to sell more books. And if you're looking to boost your publishing game and to maximize your book's potential on Amazon, Then publishing performance is designed to help authors just like you to grow your readership and to reach a much wider audience.

[00:44:45] Teddy Smith: Now I know that Amazon ads can be slightly complicated, which is why publishing performance is like having a personalized ad account manager to create your ad campaigns, to choose your best keywords. And to make adjustments in real time. Now, if you're investing in ads, you really want to make sure that your investment is being used effectively.

[00:45:03] Teddy Smith: And Publishing Performance does just that. It aims to make your budget go further, improve your organic rank, and target keywords more effectively. Just go to publishingperformance. com to get started with Amazon Ads for just 

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