The Publishing Performance Show

Halima Khatun - DIY Book PR: The Secret to Getting Your Books Featured in National Media

• Teddy Smith • Episode 43

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Halima Khatun, a former journalist with prestigious experience at ITV and BBC, has successfully transitioned from media to becoming an accomplished author and PR consultant.  With her background in media and communications, she's mastered both storytelling and book marketing, particularly through strategic PR and media outreach. 

In this episode:

  • Journey from journalism to author
  • PR strategies for self-published authors
  • Media outreach techniques
  • Building relationships with libraries
  • Self-publishing vs traditional publishing
  • Writing authentic diverse fiction
  • Building author platforms


Resources mentioned:


Book recommendations:


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[00:00:00] Getting the right publicity for your book can make a massive difference. You know, just think about your books now and what would happen if you've got an article in the Times or the Guardian or the New York Post or something like that. And that's what this episode is all about. We're speaking to Halima Khartoum, who is an expert in PR.

[00:00:22] She's a former journalist and she knows exactly what you need to do to get your book featured in the major publications. So if you're looking to Get your book out there, get it seen by more people and get it in front of a huge audience. Then this is the episode for you. And a lot, learn a lot. Hi everyone, and welcome to the publishing performance show.

[00:00:43] I'm here with Hameed Bukhatto who's a former journalist and PR consultant and the author of five books. Welcome to the show, Helena. Thank you. It's, it's more than five now, but it's an ongoing process, but thank you for having me. How many books have you got at the moment? my secret diary series is six books deep.

[00:01:01] I'm working on a seventh, which is more of a side story. And I have a PR book and a couple of free short stories. Amazing. And so how the diary of books, tell us a bit about those. So, it started as the idea of being one book, like many authors have, and then it sort of grows arms and legs. So, the idea for me and the inspiration was, I remember years ago reading a book called Queenie, which was about a British black girl navigating the world of dating and life in London and that sort of thing.

[00:01:33] And I remember saying to my husband, Why don't we have a kind of honest and unfiltered and real account of basically a British Bengali girl going through the process of looking to find a husband, which is different to what a lot of people think it would be. Because I think a lot of people think when they hear the arranged marriage, they think you have to marry someone and they have it confused with forced marriage quite a lot.

[00:01:58] And I thought, why don't we debunk those myths and have, Explained the concept as far as I know it is, you know, you meet people of your own accord, you date people, you go on dating events, online, and on top of that your family introduce you to people that they think might be suitable. So there is that sort of Jane Austen element, but it's a lot more akin to modern dating, if you will, modern Western dating than people think.

[00:02:25] So I kind of wanted a story that isn't preaching, but it's kind of just warts and all about that experience that women go through and it tackles things like race, identity, humor, you know, with humor, it's kind of like being a second generation immigrant, the challenges we go through and ultimately, the idea was, and like I say, I was really conscious of it just being a funny book and not sort of preachy, but I wanted to tackle the notion that despite sort of our perceived outward differences, fundamentally, as human beings, we share way more in common.

[00:02:59] Yeah, then we do have differences and I think that's what I feel is captured in the book. So it's meant to be one because I didn't know anything about self publishing world. I thought I traditionally publish and all of that. And like I say, we're six books deep and I don't know where it's going to end because people, for me, the readers love it.

[00:03:17] And as long as people love it and continue reading it and a great goal for me is it's not just read by British Bengali British Asian People who can relate to the experience. It's actually read by a whole broad Base of people and it's been embraced in mainstream media. It's been embraced by readers that might not have picked up a diverse book before because often diverse books get boxed into a category of maybe that's not for me and that was how The Secret Diary started.

[00:03:47] So what was meant to be one book is now six, and we'll see where it goes. Brilliant. So is it, the books are really funny. there's lots of good bits in it. Did you, did you intend to write them as funny books originally or was it more biographical or how did that, tell us about the backgrounds of how you got those.

[00:04:02] So I should, I should say it's very important. It's not my life story though. There's obviously snippets of things that mine or friends happened to. Humor is kind of my go to. That's my happy place. And I think it's as the books have developed and a lot of readers have noticed this that first It's humor humor humor and as I get into book six There's more serious notes because it's not just about it's not a rom com then it's actually the character has a baby She goes into a different element of her life, you know, oh, I'm just on a podcast Sorry that I told you I did say we were a full house somewhere else my brother.

[00:04:34] Do you want me to start again? Yeah, start that question again. So okay

[00:04:41] So, humour is my go to. It's kind of my, my, my safe zone, my happy place. My editor often says I'm a deft hand with humour. But having said that, it's also as the series has gone on, and the protagonist has gone through more serious life changes. So, for example Because a lot of rom coms they end with happily ever after where they just get together and that's it.

[00:05:04] Whereas this is more she gets married, she then moves to a new city, she has to navigate life, you know, with new in laws, and she has to deal with then, you know, pregnancy, and the latest one is motherhood, which can have dark moments as any mother would tell you. So it wouldn't have been right if it was, book six was like book one, which was sort of humor, humor, you know, joke after joke.

[00:05:24] It actually had to have. More serious tones, but it always blends it with humor always brings people back to that comfortable place where actually we can Find the funny in situations that sometimes aren't funny, but I think it has more of a serious tone So I would say they're definitely still rom coms But perhaps not as much in the traditional sense as the books go on.

[00:05:47] Brilliant. That's really useful. I'm speaking to a man called Dave Cohen, who's he's a sitcom writer for the BBC. He's amazing. And he's going into writing funny novels. And he's actually got a book, which is like how to write funny novels. So I think it'd be. So I think you'd be super interested to speak to him because he's a really good guy.

[00:06:04] I might pick up some more tips. Pick up some more tips. So did you learn about being funny in your books? think funny was all I had. I think humor was my thing. And I remember colleagues, it sounds strange, doesn't it, saying it about yourself, like you're bragging, but colleagues would say, you know, you, you know, you're very funny and things like that.

[00:06:22] So I think it's not something I learned. I think as a writer, as my books developed and I read more and I honed my craft more, I got used to, and working with my editor, I got used to sort of pacing the humour because that is a craft in itself. How you sort of create the tension and how you. Throw things in and, you know, a lot of it's to do with the timing and sort of making things jarring and things like that.

[00:06:43] so that I guess was developed, but a lot of it's organic and a lot of it's from watching funny programs, reading funny books and you know, when you read a book and you laugh out loud, it's like creating that feeling. And I think a lot of it, it's, it's sort of, I probably honed it without realising just with the literature I consume and the media I consume.

[00:07:02] Yeah. So what was the, what were the inspirations in that medium? Was there anything particularly you watched or read that you thought, oh, this is the kind of style I'd like to use? So I guess a lot of times my books compared to, it's sort of like the Brown Bridget Jones that's been coined, it's compared to that kind of humour.

[00:07:20] I think I remember reading early on things like Zadie Smith's White Teeth, which was one of the books where I just laughed out loud. I don't know if you've read that, but it's just funny. And it was just moments of There were sort of, cultural references that just made me laugh so much. And I think, and a lot of it is from real life because I think sometimes, you know, mums and dads and sisters, there can be caricatures and they can do funny things.

[00:07:45] And obviously, in my books, I've sort of exaggerated it to make it even more funny. But, you know, a lot of it is inspiration from real life. So yeah, I'd say Zadie Smith I'd say you know, the Bridget Jones series was funny And I think it is finding those books where and I read him a few years back I think I read Sophia Khan is not obliged which is another BAME author who writes about I think it's a Pakistani protagonist writes about British Muslim fiction in romcoms and you know In that book, there were sort of moments that had me laughing out loud as well, and it's picking out those and sort of, I guess it's more, it's not a conscious thing, if that makes sense, you're just reading it and you're like, that's funny.

[00:08:26] And then you're inspired with your own work, without realising if that makes sense. Yeah, definitely. I found when I've been writing, sometimes it's just, you'll be writing something, you're not intending for it to be funny, and then you think, oh, it'd be funny if this happens, and then you find yourself laughing along with it.

[00:08:41] Yeah, and I think you sort of self correct in the editing process, so I think, I remember in one of the things, the feedback I get from my readers is they love the mum's character. They love the mum in the story and her Sort of bluntness and in book six, which is has a slightly more serious tone I on the second reading I was like we need to get the mum in more We need to pull her in to lighten some moments so I went back and created some hilarious scenes because basically the mum is an eternal matchmaker So even when her daughters are married, she's always looking out at young man and thinking, oh, do I know someone for him?

[00:09:17] And, you know, so I created a scene where basically the baby's a bit poorly. So, the protagonist has gone to the doctor, the pharmacist, because the doctors are not available. And the mum's like, oh, do you think he's that tall? Or is he standing on something? Should we find out if he's Bengali? And, and it's like the most inappropriate time to ask.

[00:09:32] And it's, but it just lent itself so well to the story, because that is the kind of thing that the character's mum would do. Yeah. Cause it's like anytime is appropriate. Anytime is game to find a man kind of thing. I could see my mom doing that before I got married. She was like, Oh, what do you think about this lady?

[00:09:48] Yeah. I think it's a mom thing. Yeah. That's in life. Dixie is settled. Yeah. So before you're a writer, you actually had more of a job working in PR and can you tell us a bit about your PR backgrounds? Like what did you, what was your job? How's that affected your writing? Well, I guess if I, if I was to really rewind it back, I did English and marketing, and then I studied broadcast journalism for my postgraduate, and I started as a journalist, so it was very much finding the story in the story, working for radio, TV and then I went to, they call it the dark side of PR, and that was really, again, storytelling, I was very fortunate in that my line of PR was healthcare PR, so it wasn't the glamorous, glamorous, glamorous.

[00:10:30] Events, beauty events, fashion. It wasn't that kind of PR at all. It was talking to real people on the phone that were Patients that had received treatment from the hospitals Which were basically my clients and really finding out how was their life before and after the treatment so I got to do a lot of storytelling and that really helped with the my own writing process.

[00:10:51] That really helped. I'm just gonna have a bit of, I can feel my throat. So that helped me with my own writing process and kind of again it's just I guess using my journalist hat and my PR hat has informed my work because it's characters are people. Characters have backgrounds and backstories and they impact at certain times and certain points throughout the story and that's, that's where it really came into form.

[00:11:20] Sorry, that's the end of that question though, but I'm gonna That's fine. I'm determined that my throat doesn't go like it did with co op. That's absolutely fine. No worries. Take your time. Thank you.

[00:11:34] So, now you, your background was in PR, especially, you talked about doing it for the hospital. Now you also do a bit of work helping authors with their PR as well. So, what led you into doing that? Was it a gap you saw in the market, or was it just something you didn't see authors doing a lot of? So, I obviously wrote this book, Priceless Publicity.

[00:11:54] Shameless plug. Yep. There's a link in the show notes. Oh great. So when I started on my author journey I thought I would go down the traditionally published route, which I think a lot of people Assume, before they know anything about self publishing, I didn't know anything about that indie publishing world.

[00:12:13] And if I'm honest, and when I started in, I would say, 2019, 2020, my book came out. Self publishing didn't have BookTok, they didn't have Indie Author of the Month at Barnes Noble. Now it's quite respected and it's quite cool. Before I didn't know much about it. So I assumed, it's terrible now, I assumed that you self publish if your book's not good enough, that's just the perception I had.

[00:12:36] So when I did go down the self publishing route and I learned more about it and I understood that actually, it's quite amazing. There's pros and cons, but overall it was the best thing for me. I was determined that my book stands side by side with the traditionally published books. And for that, I thought, I spent a decade, I spent my career PR ing.

[00:12:58] Other businesses, other corporations, other individuals. So why don't I do some of that for myself? So I remember early on, I got in, I think in the first year of having published my first book, I got in good housekeeping, a full page spread. I got on the BBC. I was on BBC radio and it was a story I pitched and then creating a panel about it.

[00:13:21] I got in lots of local and regional media. And basically I bolstered my. Reputation, as it were. I bolstered my brand by getting my own publicity that Trad put on and I should mention not all Traditionally published authors get to even get their own publicity because nowadays only the big ones That are perhaps being pushed at the forefront by the publisher Get that kind of treatment.

[00:13:47] So I was wanting to stand on a par with them. And PR for me is a great equaliser because you don't have to put money behind it. It's not advertising, you don't pay for it. It's purely on the strength of the story you have to pitch to the media. So I used that and I remember thinking Most authors would not afford to do their own PR.

[00:14:05] Most authors would not think to do their own PR because I think we're often taught about Facebook ads and Amazon ads. And they're kind of, I guess, the core components in people's marketing strategies, and it's pushed to be the core component. And while they are, I would say very important. PR doesn't have to be an either or, you don't have to do that instead of it.

[00:14:25] I felt like it's a great complement to it because if you get published if your books you can then mention as featured in in the Facebook ad you do, you can add it to your website, you can add it to your profile on Amazon, you can mention it in the blurb of your, in the back of your book. Basically, it's And I thought, wouldn't it be great if authors knew how to do their own publicity without having to hire me, without having to hire a PR consultant?

[00:14:49] Because it's not that complicated, it just takes time and it takes you to find the story in your business. And that's where the idea of priceless publicity came out. And I should mention, in my PR career, I also trained businesses heads of departments to find a story in their story. So while I wasn't necessarily honing them to be PR gurus, I was training them in the aspects of PR.

[00:15:12] So that's where the idea of priceless publicity came about, because I thought, if authors could do it for themselves, It would help their business immeasurably because the thing is, we're not just authors when you self publish, you're also a business owner. So that's where the idea for Priceless Felicity was born.

[00:15:28] I think loads of people forget that. They just, especially writers, you know, writers are often quite arty types, hence they forget that what they're really doing is trying to make money and make a business out of it. And so those steps get forgotten. With the publicity you got with Good Housekeeping and So what was the other publication you said?

[00:15:46] I was with the BBC. I was with I recently had a TV crew in my house from the BBC doing a programme. I had, Mother and Baby. That was a side story. Basically, I'd given birth during a pandemic. But even though the story is about that, they plugged my book too. Humanity Named, there was a lot and there's a lot of regional publications.

[00:16:02] There's the Manchester Evening News, which was a very big one. in Manchester where I live you know, the Stockport Papers, lots of different publications and there's Asian Image, which is a BAME publication. So I had my story for my first book quite far and wide. Oh, Metro as well, the national newspaper, they covered it too.

[00:16:21] Amazing. So those first ones, like, yeah, like Good Housekeeping, Manchester News, those are like amazing places to get your book mentions. I guess the benefit of getting it mentioned is obviously people read it, made by your book, but also you get those links back to your website, which helps boost your profile.

[00:16:34] And also it's just generally good publicity. How did you, how did you get those great links? Was it because of your, did you have special contacts that you used from your background in PR? Or was it, was there a particular technique you used to try and get those? So this is the beauty of PR that another PR guru or agency wouldn't tell you.

[00:16:55] All of them were new contacts. Now I think, if you had a PR contact, so you knew someone in journalism through your work, that might get you a conversation, but it doesn't guarantee you publicity. That's a really important thing that authors should note because I think often they hold themselves back. We hold ourselves back because we assume we might not have the contact, we might not have the in.

[00:17:15] But actually a good story is a good story. And an example of which, and I mention this in the book, is I studied with someone who's a BBC health reporter now. And when I was working a healthcare PI, you know, I took him out to lunch and pitched my stories. But he wasn't interested in my private consultants.

[00:17:31] You know, I was working for private hospitals at the time. He wasn't interested in those stories. He was covering world firsts. He was covering things like junior doctor strikes. So, My story, despite having studied with him and being friends with him, didn't make the cut because ultimately it's down to the story.

[00:17:47] So, I think, for me, it's down to the strength of the story, how you pitch it, and it's all in the book I explain about kind of keeping things short and sweet, tailoring it towards them so you're not wasting their time, and just the general little hints and tips and also how to craft a press release. how to craft a pitch, how to get the story out there so that people will want to basically, so basically make it as easy as possible for a journalist to want to publish your story.

[00:18:13] And that's all the things I explained. So in short, you don't need to have a huge contacts book of journalists and you know, you can actually get it without knowing anybody. It's finding the story in your business, knowing how to pitch it and having the confidence to do so. That is amazing. Because I always think of PR as, you know, you need to do a little black book of contacts so that you can get into these publications.

[00:18:36] But if you just do it from scratch, that's amazing. Did you, when you were thinking about who to contact, did you have a particular, so for example with Good Housekeeping, were you thinking, oh, Good Housekeeping would be a great place to showcase my kind of stories? Or was it you just thinking that was a big publication and I'd love to be featured in it?

[00:18:55] So, from memory, Good Housekeeping were looking for a particular story, and I think it was about how we, people that have, I'm trying to think, I think it was maybe pivoted during the pandemic or created something they hadn't done before, and so for me it was being an author, so the story's all about my I would say there's ways people can look.

[00:19:14] Firstly, Google is your friend and that every journalist contacts is on, you know, Google. Now there's every publication. There's a contact us section. There might be specific journalist details. The other thing is I started with what I knew. So I. And I always suggest this to other authors and business owners.

[00:19:33] Start with your local media. They're great. They love to champion a local person doing good. Like your local newspaper. Local, do you know what? Podcasts as well. And I think people forget this a lot. And often I have this question where they go, Oh, isn't media a bit dated? Isn't it a bit old? And actually because they're thinking of newspapers and broadsheets and all of that.

[00:19:55] Actually. Media is different now. Nowadays, social media, reaching out to a blogger, for example, reaching out to a podcast. So for me, you know, I got my Priceless Publicity book on Joanna Penn on the Self Publishing Show podcast. That was me PR ing my books and my business. So sometimes I think, don't Look beyond just, you know, your local, local newspaper is an amazing way to start because they are great champions of local people that have done well.

[00:20:21] But I would also say, look at new media, look at websites, look at blogs, look, podcasts are huge now, so look at podcasts that are relevant for your stories. But yeah start kind of, the reason I say start locally is because like I say they're great champions and it gives you a bit of a confidence boost to start there and figure out what, what worked, what didn't and then you can go to other publications, you can go, go to national absolutely and then it's just finding out what stories they're looking for and I think this is really really key and I think people miss.

[00:20:53] I had this in when I was consulting a lot of people will say I want to feature in the Times. Of course you do. Have you read the Times recently? Have you seen businesses like yours? And how are they covered? And often the answer would be, no, I've not seen a business like mine. And I think people just like the idea of getting into, you know, getting on the BBC News or getting in the Times or getting in the Guardian.

[00:21:15] And I think it's really important, and your key to getting great media coverage, and it sounds so obvious, is read the publication that you want to be seen in, find out if they have a section. That would be relevant to you. How do they cover the story? And often it's not about having a story That's a book review.

[00:21:35] They're probably quite hard to get into and all of my publicity I think bar one has been straight book reviews often. They're the story around the story. So for example me typing my book into my iPhone notes while I was nursing my Now Elder's Daughter was a story. Me winning a award for my books was a story.

[00:21:56] So it's not necessarily a whole review of your book. It can actually be other elements that create the news, but then they push your story and they get people's interest. And one thing that I've actually felt, found that's been super helpful for my books is, most of my books are non fiction, so I've found newsletters which are kind of, or blogs, which are related to the exact thing I'm talking about, so say you've got a book about parenting, see if you can find blogs where they're talking about those parenting, because those people who have got those blogs, they're always looking for content to push out.

[00:22:27] They're basically mini journalists and they, they love getting a story, so if you can provide them with something that's interesting, they're much more likely to put it out. And a lot of people just say, well, can you promote my book's newsletter, but as you said, maybe writing a bit more specific to those newsletters, maybe creating a story that they can share with their audience could be a much better way of approaching them.

[00:22:48] Absolutely, and I think that's the key thing. It's knowing the publications, knowing what they cover. Can you see yourself there? Does your narrative, what you've got to offer, fit? And if so, it is a case of, you know, going for it, having the confidence to go for it and public, you know, promote what you've got.

[00:23:04] And I think as authors, we can be quite shy and reserved. That's one of the natures of being a writer because a lot of our work, let's be honest, it's quite isolating. You're sat by yourself writing for hours on end. So it's not natural for a lot of people, but I think believe in your story, believe in your brand and believe in your business.

[00:23:21] And that's how you get, you know, the publicity. It is. So in your book, you've got lots of case studies about things you did. Have you got any good examples you can share of like one PR that really works that maybe even someone who's just starting out could do? Well, I think one of the things that people often forget, and it's a great thing if you're starting out, is the fact that you've got a new book out is publicity in itself, publicity worthy in itself.

[00:23:48] And I think sometimes people think, Oh, it's just, it's my sixth book in the series. A new book is a new product. An example I often use, and I use in the book is that, you know, how many iPhones have come out, how many Android phones have come out in the last decade? You probably can't count. Doesn't stop Apple and Samsung and all of the rest of them from going out to the tech magazines and saying they've got this new phone and getting publicity for it.

[00:24:16] So, Don't forget that your book itself is a new product, and that's what's really interesting. That's and that would be of interest to your local media for sure, that, you know, you've got a new book out, you could talk about the reasons behind it. So, with my secret diary books It's kind of like myth busting around arranged marriages and for the BAME publications, so the niche Publications that would be read by persons of color was about sort of why I'm trying to debunk these stories or you know Even an Asian author that's creating a platform that's creating the Brown Bridget Jones So it's finding so it's I guess it's also being sure aware that Not every story will work for every publication.

[00:24:55] So you tailor, so you almost maybe find three or four bullet points, key points about you, about your book. For example, are you a surgeon that's writing a medical rom com? You know, just, what's, what do you bring that's quirky and interesting to the table? And having maybe a list of those things, thinking, Oh, this could be interesting to this public, local publication.

[00:25:16] Oh, there's a, I wrote a book about being a new mum. There's motherhood blogs here. So it's going to the different places and actually just having those kind of key points to your hand and tailoring it to them because having been a journalist on the other side, There's nothing worse than being sent kind of a blanket catch all press release that's been sent to hundreds of journalists and it's obvious because it's not even for the region you're based in, for example.

[00:25:39] It's not even I have a lifestyle blog and I get sent completely inappropriate pitches because you know they've just had a list of people and they've sent it to everybody. So, it's really just about tailoring and, again, it just comes back to know the publication you're pitching to.

[00:25:58] So with your books you've done most of the PR we talked about today has been sort of digital or print PR, you know, it's been appearing in things like magazines or like on my blogs. Have you done any PR, which is more in a physical location, for example, book signings or anything like that? And does that have any effects on your business?

[00:26:17] I have a few coming up, actually, this month and next month. Mainly in my, I guess you wouldn't really call this PR, but outreach to my local libraries. I've been doing talks. I've got a talk coming up I think in a couple of weeks and one in another month. It's kind of like an author talk. I think, I sort of love that.

[00:26:35] I champion local libraries. I love supporting them. I grew up just in libraries. That's consequently borrowing books. And I think that they are really undervalued part of society really because I think, you know, more and more of them getting shut. So I'm happy to support libraries in that way. I find that in this day and age, for authors, time is of the essence.

[00:26:57] So I don't do too many because I think that, I guess it's, again, it's just time. And I should mention my lifestyle. I have two very small children. One has just now gone into reception, my youngest. So I'm starting to free up time, but I did all of this around very small people. As you know yourself in that book.

[00:27:14] It's survival, so I've not done lots of events. I may do more, but I would say that your, in terms of numbers and volume and pushing your book out, it is probably your, TikTok's worked really well for me. It is doing your Facebook and your Amazon and it's doing your publicity because you can reach wider.

[00:27:32] But I do think the Like I say, local library events, book signings, they're great also for social proof because what you do, you end up with some lovely photos for your social media and, you know, for your adverts and your Facebook page and that sort of thing. So, that's where they do add a lot of value.

[00:27:50] But I think, like I say, I think it's really important that most authors are very time poor. So it's just prioritising and thinking what's going to have the biggest impact for you. And I think the thing to bear in mind with book signings is, I guess it depends on how many you sell, but you know, you're taking hours out of your day.

[00:28:08] And you know, not including the preparation. So again, it's just about prioritising and finding the right times for it. I know exactly what you mean about short time. I've got an eight and a half week old and a two year old at the moment. I'm impressed you even made the podcast today. But talking about time, a lot of people will be listening to this also thinking, Oh, I've got no time.

[00:28:29] You know, people who've got jobs as long as I've been an author, most people aren't just doing this full time immediately. So is there any, if you're thinking about outsourcing things like PR, where would be the best place to start? Is it the other? So you just go straight to agency and tell them you'll need or is there a particular method you think of?

[00:28:47] The thing with agencies is they do charge a lot because I've worked in agencies because they're often used to working with big businesses with big pockets. And therein lies the rub. So I guess you could probably find a freelancer, but what I've often found is that people feel like, so I've, I've done a couple of individuals in my past, I've done like business coaches and things like that.

[00:29:11] But I think the issue is that if you will, the issue that the fact that they don't have the budget. So therefore, when you don't have as much of a budget, then you can't quite see the value. So often it's the big brands that need publicity and need that ongoing drip fed media. Hoover up all the PR resources and that's the reason I've got priceless publicity because my whole point is do it alongside your work So I'm not saying don't write that next book.

[00:29:38] I'm not saying don't focus on those Facebook ads I'm saying find a pocket of time where you can pick up a phone to a journalist or write a two second pitch saying I've got This story so it's kind of and this is what I'm doing. I'm working on within my business. So, admittedly, I'm not doing lots and lots and lots of promo at the moment like I did at the beginning because I'm quite busy with my books now and every author will find there's periods when they're just writing, writing, and there's other periods when they want to do more marketing.

[00:30:04] And I think it's just about understanding that you kind of have to carve out those pockets because I find that personally, I find the times I'm completely knee down finishing a book, my marketing can suffer. You know, so you kind of need to find time pockets of time to do both. With your books they're all self published, did you ever consider, like, going down the traditional publishing routes and, like, did you ever Do you even apply for ticket publishing or anything like that?

[00:30:31] For about a very short period of time, I considered doing traditionally published. First, I thought that was the only way to go. And I had a particular agent in mind and I did manage to converse with them, which for me was huge. But for me, the change was I didn't like the idea of my author career destiny being in the hands of an agent or a publisher.

[00:30:55] And I was going to a writer's critique group and they were saying that, you know, they have spent eight years pitching their story. Another lady said she's pitched to over a hundred different agents and been rejected. And I thought, it's difficult because I think when people do publish with a traditional publisher, It has its pros and cons, and I think one of the things that people feel is that they've got that validation.

[00:31:18] They've got that validation that there's someone at this tier that has said, my book is okay, fit for public consumption. For me, my validation is my readers. The fact that they're buying the book, the fact that they're reviewing the book, the fact that they're, I'll get a random pop up on my Instagram, or a message saying, you know, I've loved this book.

[00:31:36] And, ultimately, they're the end goal anyway. So for me, rather than have someone in an agency or a publishing house say what, you know, that my book is the way that you've been published, I took that and I empowered myself and now, like I say, my validation is with the readers. So I didn't entertain the idea of traditional publishing for too long.

[00:31:57] It did take me a little bit of time because I think I had a bit of a bee in my bonnet and if I dare I say a bit of a snobbery about it, I'll be honest, where I thought that was the way to go. Self publishing is not the way to go. But I, when I I realized that self publishing was a better option and also a more profitable option because I've been able to Write six books in I'm a slow writer in comparison, but again small children, but six books in four years Well, actually eight books in four years Whereas traditionally it's sometimes it's one every two years.

[00:32:27] I believe it's a very slow process. And I think ultimately, I decided I didn't want to have my career in the hands of somebody else and have, you know, the big time gaps in between and I think fundamentally for me, as a person of colour and someone from a community that often gets misrepresented in the media, gets misrepresented in literature, I feel.

[00:32:48] It was really important that I put my true voice forward because when I did have conversations with some journalists when pitching the story, there was already a fixed agenda and view of how the story should be treated. So the first, you know, one of the first things is I remember speaking to a national journalist and she said, Could you tell me how you've escaped an arranged marriage?

[00:33:07] And I was like, Whoa, hold on. First, it's not my story. But also this is not what we're talking about. So it was that entrenched. I. One of the things with my books that readers often say is it's so relatable, it feels so real, it feels like there's real characters. And I do think that, had my book been traditionally published, you know, it goes through so many edits and so many opinions, it may well have been watered down.

[00:33:32] And I'm so glad that my words aren't. Apart from my own editor, of course, but he's good. He's on side. And beta readers. I do hear that a lot. Like people think, oh, public publishing is more of the like prestigious in many ways, but you know, so many books have done well are self published. You don't need to get on publishing routes.

[00:33:52] I think maybe it's a bit of vanity that you want to see your book, like in a bookshop and things like that, but you can still get that through the self publishing route. It's just a slightly different way of going about it. I think it's just a perception created by the industry. I. was initially worried that people would maybe not think my books are as good because they were self published.

[00:34:10] And it has, I haven't noticed that effect. I haven't noticed that difference. As you know, as self published authors, our print books have to be, unfortunately, slightly higher than traditional books because, and our e books are cheaper. That's generally the model. It's because we have print on demand. So we don't do economies of scale and have, like, thousands sitting in a warehouse waiting to be sold.

[00:34:30] I've not found that to be an issue, so I've not found that to have impacted my sales particularly as far as I'm aware having a slightly higher price point because people will pay for the book they want and I think as self published authors we're probably guilty of lowering our prices and devaluing ourselves and thinking, you know, there's, I guess we have an era of free books and 99p books and The traditional publishers, they don't do that and I think we, sometimes, I think it's worth noting that if your book is professionally done and you've got a professional cover with, done by a cover designer and you've been professionally edited and all those things, you have to get over that Self publishing hurdle and accept that your book is as good as a traditionally published book and Position yourself accordingly and like you say you can get in Waterstones.

[00:35:19] It's easy enough. You can get in I'm pushing local libraries at the moment. I've had such a warm response from the local libraries It's never come up as an issue that I'm a self published author. They look at my book. They look at my cover. They don't care I don't even think they've asked like often for them a good book is a good book and for the readers It's the case.

[00:35:39] I think sometimes it's our own hang up and perhaps maybe I don't know if the traditional industry has that hang up, too But I think there is it's that feeling because and it's it's an embedded feeling isn't it from since self publishing I guess happened Yeah, because it was the perception that it's because your books aren't good enough when you're speaking to libraries.

[00:35:57] Was that just something? the library Oh, sorry, go on. Sorry, I'll start again. When you were speaking to libraries, was it just a case of making the libraries that are around and then contacting them yourself? I'm starting very small and working outwards, if that helps. Yeah. And that's the best way. It can be overwhelming to have like a spreadsheet.

[00:36:20] Start with your local library where you go, well, you hopefully go yourself. I attended many storytime sessions, mother and child playgroups. So I was quite familiar, so it is a natural segue. So think about talking about people who are just starting out in writing so not just from a PR point of view, but also like tips for like writing and keeping going.

[00:36:39] What would be your tips for new writers who are just starting out? Read a lot, so read really widely and naturally you'll see the way books are written, why they're written in a certain way, how tension is built, and I think depending on the genre you write. I think my books are very much first person present tense, which is very popular now, and it's their story, and I think what's really important, and my editor said this to me, I remember quite early on, and it's feedback that stayed with me.

[00:37:09] And he said, feelings are messy, don't make your writing neat. And it's a diary, and like I say, it might not be for everything, but it's a diary format. And I think sometimes, I have, sometimes you read a book and you can see when perhaps the writer is holding back. So, don't hold back. Put your feelings out there.

[00:37:30] And you can always edit it afterwards. The beauty of what we do is no one's seeing the first draft. So put it all out there. And I think if I was in my very, very, very first draft, I think I was guilty of probably thinking, My mum's going to read this. My sister's going to read this. My friends are going to read this.

[00:37:45] Don't, you know, first writers, if nobody's going to see it but you. And then you can write the truest version. And of course you can scale back and there's things you can do and, you know, hire a good tribe around you. Get a good editor, get a good beta reader, beta readers, get a few. And I think The most important thing is, and I've just come out of the school summer holiday, so I wrote about 500 words in six weeks.

[00:38:11] It's normally, if on a good, on a good day I'll do about 2, 000. Just write. My method is I dictate on my phone for the first draft. I've just really got into that groove. It's not for everybody. But you can't edit a blank page. It's a cheesy saying, but it's so true. So really, just right, you can always go back.

[00:38:31] But what you can't do is, I think the danger is sort of analysis, paralysis, and just overthinking your work, and overthinking your words. And I think I'm more of a pantser. then a plotter so I'm more sort of just write things and then go back and change it. But whatever your method is Just write keep writing.

[00:38:47] You'll get better. You'll get quicker. You'll get more efficient listen to feedback But also you don't always always have to take on the feedback But just you know listen to it and see If it feels right to you and also the beauty of being a self published author is you don't have 50 million editors that are Gonna polish it beyond recognition and then it's going to go out into the world.

[00:39:08] Let your readers give you feedback and you learn things from them as well. You learn things. The first book is such a massive learning curve in so many ways. So don't stop yourself from getting it out there. Great. That's really good advice. So you mentioned you've just written 500 words. So what are the projects you're working on at the moment?

[00:39:26] Is there anything you can share with us or is it all a bit secret for now? No, it's not a secret. So, the Secret Diary series is six books in at the moment It felt like a natural pause, not an end, but a pause. The character's just had her baby. She's getting through that So we'll let her deal with that phase of her life for a minute.

[00:39:42] Yeah, but I Everyone loves the characters. So I've written a short free story, which you can get by signing up to my Newsletter called No One Ever Asks. No, sorry. It's called Mother of the Bride. I had a name change. That is out now, and I'm planning to write shorter stories. So maybe like, I'm hazard to guess, 50, 60, 000 words.

[00:40:04] Short story books on the individual characters around their feelings during the protagonist's wedding. So then their own experiences come to the fore, good and bad. And I think it's a nice exploration of these characters because people love them, they love the dynamic between the mum and the sisters and that's what makes half the story.

[00:40:21] I love those family stories and it's kind, you know, and all the different things that come to the fore and I think that's the kind, what I'm working on at the moment. So it's the big sister story. I probably will do another publicity nonfiction book, and I think this will be around branding, but that's not, not, not front of list at the moment.

[00:40:43] I think I'm just working on this series because it's doing so well and people want more. Great. You'll definitely have to come back and talk to us about the new books when they come out. Sorry, I didn't hear that. You'll definitely have to come back and talk to us about the new books when they're out, the publicity books.

[00:40:59] I'd love to come back. Yeah. Brilliant. So thank you very much. That's been really, that's been great chatting to you. I'm, it's been really, I love to read your books. I love your publicity book. It's, I think it's a really good read for everyone who's just getting into writing and wants to think about how they can promote themselves.

[00:41:14] So definitely get hold of that. There's a link to it in the, in the show notes below. So finally, just the last question is, what's the book that you're reading at the moment that you think maybe everyone should be reading? So, a book that I read a long time ago, it's a difficult one because I don't know if it's got, a lot of books have pros and cons, but this one that I did employ some of its strategies to this day, I believe it's a self published book and it's called The Miracle Morning by Hal Elrod.

[00:41:41] Yeah, and a lot of it, I'll be honest, sort of the front end, there's a lot of preamble, but I think it was, it was probably necessary. But for me, so you've read the book and it's all about having the gratitude and how you start your day. And I'm, I work a lot on mindset, admittedly, not as much as I, But I think it's so important because we get into work and we just focus on the work and the writing and all of that.

[00:42:05] And we forget that you, these things are really important. They might not add to your word count, but they're laying a foundation for you. So I try to practice gratitude as much as I can in the mornings. And just the belief. And it was a mindset shift for me because I've always been like my, character in the book, a glass half empty person.

[00:42:23] So I've always been someone that kind of, if you think the worst, you won't be disappointed. And now I've turned it completely on its head and I've realised that, you know, I remember my business coach saying to me, if you think something, if you think something bad is going to happen, it will. If you think you're, whether you think you're right or wrong, you're right.

[00:42:40] Or whether you think something will happen, it won't, you're right. So the point is, Whatever you think of something, it manifests itself, and it's a bit woo woo, it's not everyone's cup of tea, but for me, that's hit the nail on the head, so, and it did start with reading The Miracle Morning, and it was just about getting your mindset right, and I think us authors we could all benefit from working on our mindset and continuing to, because when you're an author, you're a solopreneur, so you're your own cheerleader, you're often your own branding person, you're the writer, you have so many hats.

[00:43:12] And what you don't have necessarily is that business coach or that, or that team and tribe around you. So it's really important that we work on our mindsets, you know, myself included and work on, look after our mental health and focus on our growth and focus on looking after ourselves as well. So that is one book I would say it's worth a read for sure.

[00:43:31] Brilliant. Yep. I can highly endorse that. So the miracle morning and the 12 week year, if you take those two books together, that's basically my productivity method. So Yeah, check that one out. It basically breaks down your year into 12 week slots and helps you to be productive over time. I'll have to look at that.

[00:43:45] Yeah. It's a really good book. Anyway, thank you so much for joining. It's been really great chatting. I think it's been a really good conversation. Everyone's getting loads out of it. So so much. We'll speak soon. Thank you for having me, Teddy. Thank you so much for tuning into the Publishing Performance Podcast.

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