The Publishing Performance Show

Craig Martelle - How to Sell 20 Books to Make 50K

• Teddy Smith • Episode 6

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Craig Martelle is a prolific author with nearly 200 published works, including over 110 full-length novels. A retired Marine and former lawyer, Craig is also the founder of the 20 Books to 50K community and a key figure in the indie author world.

In this episode:

  • Craig's journey from Marine to bestselling author
  • Strategies for writing and publishing multiple books per year
  • The importance of book pricing and how it affects sales
  • Insights into international markets, particularly German translations
  • The evolution and impact of author conferences
  • Tips for building and managing online author communities
  • Balancing fiction and non-fiction writing
  • The importance of mindset in an author's career


Resources mentioned:


Books Mentioned:


Connect with Craig Martelle:


Connect with Teddy Smith:

Join our Facebook Community - https://www.facebook.com/groups/publishingperformance/

Teddy: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the publishing performance show. Today, I'm joined by Craig Martel, who's the author of over 100 books. Plus, he's the chief poster for the 20 books to 50k Facebook group. And he was the original founder of the conference, the 20 books 50k, which has now stopped and has been changed into something else.

Teddy: But still, today's an amazing episode where we're going to be talking all about how you can be organized to write over 100 books, how you can get benefits from networking with other authors in your community, and some of the best conferences, you You can attend and how to get the most out of them. Hi everyone.

Teddy: Welcome to the publishing format show. My name is Teddy and I'm here with Craig Martel, who's the author of lots and lots of books in multiple different niches and thriller mystery, some sci fi plus some author help self help. And he's the poster in chief of the 20 books, the 50 K community on Facebook.

Teddy: So thank you very much for joining me, Craig. 

Craig: Thanks for having me, Teddy. I appreciate it. 

Teddy: No problem. So thank you so much for coming to the show. I really appreciate it. I've been following you for a while and wanted to see. I've been seeing weird books out there. It's really impressive what you've done.

Teddy: I mean, how many books have you actually published so far? Do you, do you know? The answer 

Craig: It's nearly 200. I think it's 190 something and that's I've published a lot of short stories and then published anthologies and stuff and I include those because books doesn't have a definition novels full length novels.

Craig: I've probably published. 110 120, uh full length novels. I do have I do have co writers, but still I personally have averaged Anywhere from 12 to 15 novels a year, 

Teddy: right? Wow. How do you get the time to write 

Craig: that many books? I'm retired I I retired the second time I retired first from the marine corps when I was 39 years old And then I uh went and got a law degree did the lawyer thing for a while got bored of that and also You I was working with a client up on the North slope, which is inside the Arctic circle.

Craig: And, uh, I was looking at going up there for a fourth winter. And I just said, I can't do it. And, uh, I retired again from that and said, let me write that book I always wanted to write. And so here I am and with a lot books later. So my route was a little bit, uh, Not the usual where you're writing and maybe writing full time and trying to replace a daily income.

Craig: I didn't need to replace any income cause I was already retired and drawing enough income to pay my bills. So I didn't have the pressure. However, this is me and I put a lot of pressure on myself to produce. And so I've wrote a million words a year for the first five years, and then the last four years, probably anywhere from 750 to a million a year.

Teddy: Wow. Amazing. Let's start with some of your like fiction books first, some of your, your full length novels. so the ones you're writing, which, which of the series are you writing at the moment? What's your, Sort of most recent one, I'm 

Craig: actually working on Ian Bragg seven, the seventh book in my Ian Bragg thriller series, and that's the only series that is actually live right now.

Craig: I ended, uh, I just published, uh, Cigna Space Opera number four, which I wrote book three back in 2017. So, uh. I finally got it. I said, I need to finish this series. So I wrote that last book and it left it open if I want to write another book later, but right now that series is finished. I have, geez, I don't know, uh, 21, 2021 completed series.

Craig: And that's important, I think, because I can do complete box sets. And I was going through my promotions for the end of the year because those book up pretty fast between November and December. And, uh, I, I have like a dozen complete box sets that I'm putting on, uh, for. The various promotions, 

Teddy: right? Wow.

Teddy: Amazing. And with those series that you're, especially the ones you're writing moment, where'd you find your inspiration to write those? Have you got a particular method or is it just your own thoughts? 

Craig: I spent 20 years in the Marine Corps and, uh, you get enough experience and, and ridiculous things that happen that I have a, a lifetime's worth of experience and dialogue and snippets and quips and quotes that, uh, will last me.

Craig: Until I, until I'm done writing. 

Teddy: Yeah, so they're all based on sort of your experiences with the Marine Corps and it's like some of the stories even you face 

Craig: Marine Corps And and then also as a as a business consultant, which is what I did as a lawyer 

Teddy: Yeah, right. Do you have to find this you're writing stories and sometimes you think oh, maybe I shouldn't include that Maybe that's a bit too real or anything like that.

Craig: That's a sometime sometime and and my thrillers Actually, they sell better as action adventure because of the thrillers. It's assassin thriller You And a lot of it is, is workup because it's a logistic, it's a prep and that does get kind of boring. And I get, I get slammed on reviews every now and then by people like, boy, this is slow.

Craig: I expect more thrills in my thriller. Yes. You expect a fast and furious and guess what? The real world doesn't work that way. And the military, one of the, one of the best sayings is hurry up and wait. a lot of things happen in very short order and most of the world happens in the 90 percent of the time you're doing nothing.

Teddy: Yeah. Do you find, but by adding a lot of detail like that, that is helping your fan base to really become your fans rather than, you know, just having a thriller, which could be a one off type thing. 

Craig: I have to temper the, uh, amount of background and prep and add in some levels of excitement through various, side plots or subplots, but generally, yes, I think it establishes a level of realism as opposed to, I mean, John wick, where you just walk it through and you shoot, you know, 150 people and, uh, very exciting.

Craig: And actually, I can't watch him, it's too hard on my heart. Because it's so exciting with the jump scare, people jumping out and he shoots them. But stuff like that, it's just completely unrealistic because you can't maintain that level of focus for that long of a time. like Fast and Furious. I mean, it doesn't matter if there's no oxygen in space, we're family.

Craig: I mean, come on man, come on. It does matter. It does matter that there's oxygen in space. All right, but you get the idea. 

Teddy: Yeah, cause I I'm reading the, um, this common strike books by JK Rowling at the moment, and they're just like that exact same thing where it's like loads of detail about the buildup in the cases.

Teddy: And then it's like. I love it. It's really builds the world for me. And I think, you know, it means you've become better fans and solid fans. 

Craig: I mean, people waiting for that next book, uh, lining up not as many as I'd like because the, the adage is I always want to sell one more book, always one more book.

Teddy: Yeah. Yeah. Great. So when you left the military in the law and what was the, what was it that made you want to become an author? Were you writing before that? Or was there something that you thought, okay, I just want to, I dabbled. I wrote 

Craig: my first book when I was 13 and I have it behind me. We discovered it just a few years ago in an old An attic in my parents barn, uh, when they finally were getting ready to sell the farm.

Craig: it, it has been recovered. I've got it. I've got the original manuscript now. It's pretty bad, but, uh, it's there. I dabbled a little bit here and there, but I always threw myself into whatever I was doing at the time. And, uh, I didn't write full time until after I retired the second time. And the actual catalyst was I lit myself on fire.

Craig: I mean, literally I lit myself on fire. I was, uh, I live here out in the back of beyond. Right. My house sits on two acres and I was, uh, trying to burn a brush pile, never use gasoline, uh, to burn a brush pile. And, uh, the fire exploded and it blew the gasoline all over me. And I took a shower and gas that then caught fire.

Craig: Yeah. Uh, the good news is there was snow on the ground a little bit. So I was able to roll, stop, drop, and roll. Right. Stop, drop, and roll right in the snow. Most of the fire out, but I still have, a pretty healthy scar on my, my leg from the fire that wouldn't go out. The good news is I was wearing all cotton, uh, I was wearing a cotton sweatshirt, I was wearing a cotton hat, I was wearing cotton, uh, blue jeans.

Craig: And so that helped immensely. So if you're wearing spandex or something that's, that kind of material, it's shrink wrap. It, it melts onto your skin. So, uh, If I'd been wearing something like that, I would be scarred for life, uh, much worse than I am, uh, as it is. 

Teddy: Good luck. Good job you weren't wearing yoga pants.

Teddy: So the answer 

Craig: was, I cannot be trusted to be outside and do manly stuff outside, so let me, uh, go write that book I always wanted to write. And, uh, I started writing and I never stopped. 

Teddy: Yeah, and all your books self published. Did you have any, uh, like, did you ever try to go down the publisher route or anything like that?

Teddy: No, I've got, I've got four books 

Craig: with a traditional publishing house. And that was one of, that was actually the very first book I wrote, which was a, an Alaskan survival, uh, post apocalyptic survival book. And, uh, a, uh, trad house, one of the, uh, the offshoots was looking for trying to get beyond zombie post apoc.

Craig: Yeah. And I had this book and one guy read it and he's like, Hey, you need to, you need to talk to these people. And I'm like, I'm 52 years old. I am not getting any rejection letters. He's like, Oh, just, just send them an email and send them a manuscript. They're waiting for it. Cause, uh, I told him about you.

Craig: I'm like, okay. So I did that. And they sent me a letter back saying, Hey, absolutely. This is exactly what we're looking for. It's a good story. Just needs edited. I'm like, yeah, no shit. He's edited because, uh, sorry about that. I don't know language. Um, uh, of course it needed edited. Cause I didn't know anything.

Craig: I didn't have an editor. I did my cover in PowerPoint. I mean, uh, I did it myself because I didn't know how do you find cover artists. And so that's the, the reaching back and helping other people is to allay a lot of those issues that I had when I started off because I didn't know anything. I knew nothing.

Craig: I knew no people. I knew I had no peers who were authors. I didn't know anything. So, uh, I learned. And yes, they put new covers on it. They gave me an editor. The editor went through it. We broke it down from one 100, 000 word book into three 50, 000 word books. So I had to add a lot of words. And, uh, uh, overall sold very well.

Craig: That was, uh, I published my first book in January of 2016. It was that book. I pulled it because I didn't sell very many copies and they considered it unpublished because they were looking to run published stuff and then they published it back in September. And it was like an all world bestseller back in September of 2016.

Craig: So it's like, Hey, I wrote a good story. Yeah. Needed a lot of help, but, uh, it, uh, it got me on that run. And yes, sales dropped off after that. And but still, it still sells. I still get royalties every quarter on it. And life is pretty good. 

Teddy: How, how did you find the process different between like self publishing and publishing?

Teddy: Is there, do you prefer one route over the other yourself? Let's talk 

Craig: timelines. The boring logistics stuff. Like, uh, like getting a cover. You get the editing, you get the proofread, you get the formatting, upload. Now you can refine all of that. I put my editor on retainer after the first year because I was writing a million words.

Craig: So I put her on retainer for a hundred thousand words a month of mine to edit and she would have two to three days and I'd try to send her like half of the novel in process and then she'd get the last half, uh, before it went, uh, when I finished it. So in the, in the trad world, it took a year Well, the first year, it took only six months because it was already a finished, completed product with just little tweaks.

Craig: Uh, the next book, the fourth book in that series, took a year and a half from when I submitted it until it published. We got down to seven days from when I pressed the end until it was edited, proofread, and posted on Amazon for sale. So, uh, you can refine that process greatly as opposed to, and Trad, the timelines are so ridiculously long.

Craig: Um, Because they're they're angling for January when they, Make a bid for shelf space in Barnes and Noble. So my end times Alaska series, yeah, you might've seen it in Barnes and Noble. It was there around the world, uh, uh, in, uh, in 2016, 2017, uh, or 2017 and 2018, but then of course it, uh, it, uh, didn't sell well enough.

Craig: And there was new, new stuff to keep it on the shelf. So, you know, we got, we got a lot of, uh, returns, but still it was there. And I've got pictures. People sent me pictures from all over the United States with my book on the shelves. And so, so trad, yes, I got into brick and mortar with my indie books. I only got into brick and mortar at places that knew me like here in Fairbanks, they've got a bunch of my titles that they got off Amazon, no returns.

Craig: And they're okay with that because I'm a, I'm a popular local author, at least according to them. And yeah, the, uh, so brick and mortar, but, but brick and mortar sales are pennies on the dollar compared to what I really make with my own books through Amazon and I am almost exclusive to Amazon because a lot of my readers are older, so they're, they're money challenged.

Craig: And Kindle unlimited subscriptions. They can read as much as my stuff, which I have a lot of stuff for, you know, what, what is it? 12 bucks a month now or 12 pounds a month. Even it's, it's not, it's not bad. 

Teddy: Yep. So do you find most of your income comes from those like K N P red sort of income rather than purchases?

Craig: Well, I've been, uh, I've been working on my advertising and with. More refined approach on the ads. I'm actually narrowing that gap. It had gotten up to like 78 to 80 percent at one point, and now it's down to just barely over 50 percent that are subscription based payments as opposed to actual sales.

Teddy: Right. Yeah. Interesting. That's very interesting. That actually goes quite nicely into what I was going to ask about next was about the marketing. So you find. When, when you, 'cause you, most of the people who are reading your book were like the subscription people. Maybe you were missing out on royalties that you would've got otherwise.

Teddy: So what did you change with your ads to, to improve that? Because ads is something that I like, that's kinda my specialty. I love, I love talking about ads. So what was, what was it you did well? 

Craig: The Amazon ads specifically, uh, running those ads. Yeah. I'm sitting down and, and Facebook, stepping back from Facebook.

Craig: 'cause right now in the United States, Facebook is a, is a toxic success pool because of politics, because of the presidential election. And this will be my third presidential election where I've been an author and, and trying to make sales. So I pulled back, I've actually paused all of my Facebook ads right now because people are avoiding Facebook like they should if they want to take care of their mental health.

Craig: Twitter or Instagram or any of those cesspools, uh, threads. This is particularly horrendous. It's, uh, so Amazon ads, because people are going to Amazon to spend money to buy something. And I run very generic ads there. Uh, I've get the good, uh, conversion rate and then we get the buy through. So I push on.

Craig: Now, I advertise every book in the series. I don't advertise just the first book. Advertise every book and also include the paperback when I advertise those. And that is the clincher because there are a lot of paperback buyers who never see an e book ad because they only buy paperbacks. So, my paperback sales have gone from like 1 percent up to 5%.

Craig: Now, it may not seem like a lot, but I sell a lot of books. So, 5 percent of a big number is a pretty big number. And, uh, and getting those sales down. Uh, one thing I did because, uh, the financial challenges of this year, there's a lot of people, uh, hurting because of the inflation increased costs. I cut the prices on my books, my thrillers, I cut them down to 2.

Craig: 99 and I have vastly increased the number of sales, so I am making far more now at 2. 99 than I was at 6. 99. And they, they did sell at 6. 99. I mean, I got pre orders and, uh, and they, they would sell on occasion. More people would read them in KU. But at a 299 price, I'm selling a lot more than people are just reading them in Kindle Unlimited because they find that's a price point.

Craig: Now, can you make a good living at that? You got to keep your foot on the gas, so keep them publishing like old titles. I'm not so quick to lower those prices because once those are gone, there's no new book to buy. Like the book I'm working on right now, number seven and Ian Bragg. That one is on pre sale or on pre order for I think 5.

Craig: 99 and I'm getting plenty of pre orders too. So, I think because the people appreciate, hey, all the rest are 2. 99, that's their normal price and life is pretty good. 

Teddy: What a lot of people do is they set their, if they've got a series of books like you do, maybe they set their first book at 2. 99 level to, as a kind of hook to get people in.

Teddy: Then the other ones may be more expensive. Is that something you've experimented with? 

Craig: I've done that before. My, my, probably my most popular, my biggest selling series was a battleship Leviathan. I have over 4, 000, I think almost 4, 100 reviews on that first book. And we priced it at 99 cents from the outset.

Craig: It was 99 cents during pre order period. And it's been 99 cents ever since. And that's, uh, we're going on, uh, geez, three, almost four years of, uh, of that book. And the first month, I think we had 25, 000 worth of sales. Yeah. On a 99 cent book moved huge, huge numbers of that thing. And it was a six book series and it sold well.

Craig: And I think the sixth book is at like 1100 reviews because we, I originally planned it for a three book series. So I've got good reviews of like a 50 percent to book two and three. So I've got 2000 reviews on book two, 2000 reviews on book three. And then a big drop off because we hadn't planned on book, uh, four, five and six until after we saw, saw how well one sold.

Craig: And then, so we added those in later, but then that resulted in like books one through three being the first book and then four, five, six. So from three to Now we had another 50 percent drop off in, in readers, because I think a lot of people expected though, that's the end of the series and it wasn't, and we haven't found those readers to bring them back on board yet, but we keep working at it.

Craig: And one thing we're doing with this set because it's been out for a while is, uh, we're doing the complete box set omnibus edition, uh, comes out October 1st. Right now it's up for pre order, but 299, we're keeping it at 299 and not going below that. And it should be pretty good. I expect we have a pretty robust, uh, pre order sales.

Craig: I just started pimping it myself to my newsletter list. So we'll see how it works. 

Teddy: Nice. It was interesting. You mentioned most of your sales come from eBooks. Like, cause for me, most of the sales of my books, even though they're non nonfiction, um, are nearly all paperback. It's like 85 percent or something paperback.

Teddy: Is that, do you think that's just like the way there's the sort of books that you Or is it? Do you think it's just coincidence or is there something you're doing to change that? Because I find paybacks maybe sometimes more profitable. 

Craig: It's a, it's, it's a nonfiction versus fiction. Uh, not everybody collects books in fiction, but for nonfiction, especially reference kind of books, they, they more tendency, the tendency is much greater to buy them.

Craig: My nonfiction series sells more paperbacks than it does eBooks. And I don't have it in Kindle Unlimited because I also give it away, uh, or, or sell it separately. So I've got those books and the paperbacks, they sell great. 

Teddy: Yep. Yep. That makes sense. So with the, um, I just want to go through sort of the marketing you do generally, like not just, uh, Amazon ads, but is there anything What do, is there anything that you've been leveraging, like, especially using like social media, like you mentioned?

Teddy: Um, but also does it change between the way you do it for nonfiction and fiction? Do you have like a different strategy for each one? 

Craig: Well, one of the big things to help you sell nonfiction is you become an expert in your community in that particular topic. And since I've been running, uh, 20 books of 50 K, the Facebook group, Michael Anderley's 20 books, 50 K for the last seven years, I have become a recognized name in the, in the world.

Craig: When it comes to self publishing and for that reason alone, my nonfiction is that people are interested because I speak with some authority, whether it's real or not. I mean, that's up to the listener to decide. And can they actually learn something from these books? But, uh, uh, so my advertising for that is I don't advertise them.

Craig: I just say, Hey, I've got them. And, uh, and the groups, I don't do self promo, but it's these books. Like I've got these books. If you, if you want to buy. And the reason I wrote them was so I could stop answering questions. Cause I'd get messages all the time or email saying, Hey, I've got this issue. I can do this here.

Craig: I'm going to write all this down and here's the book. Here's a, if you've got these questions, just here's the book. So it was a by myself time, uh, is the rate why I published those. And I've got two more, uh, nonfiction books coming out, uh, within the next couple of months. One is wit and wisdom. Some, some Craig quotes, but Craig quotes, it came out to 120 pages for Pete's sake.

Craig: I guess I've been talking too much. And then the other one is an author's legacy, which is a planning and information guide. For, uh, what happens after you die, if you're an author and you have intellectual property. So that, uh, that one is a pretty good piece of gear. I should be getting it back to my editor any day now.

Craig: And then we'll get that formatted up. Spiral bound, uh, Lulu's going to print that for us because we're going to spiral binding. It's only going to be available in paper, uh, from Lulu. Uh, we'll put it, uh, for direct sales from our websites. I mean, I've got a Shopify store and stuff like that. And we'll, uh, make the magic happen that way.

Craig: And that's another thing that I'm going to sell directly to authors via the groups that I run, because it's for them very specifically. Even though I am charging a price to make a profit, it's, uh, uh, putting this thing together. Wasn't free. Uh, my time wasn't free and, uh, but it's still a critical piece of gear that people need.

Teddy: Of course. But so, so, I mean, that's, you've obviously got a great advantage in that you have built up those seven years and you've got that reputation. So for people maybe starting out and they wanted to do some of that marketing, have you, where would you, is there anything you did that was good or is there anything you'd recommend people do now that might benefit them?

Teddy: not be how you could have done it back then. 

Craig: Well, if, uh, if you're talking nonfiction, you've got to be recognized as a, uh, as intelligent in the topic, whatever topic it is. I mean, because there's unlimited when it comes to nonfiction and you've got to find that and you join groups, you start groups, you come across as an authority of some sort, and then you write the book.

Craig: It's not, uh, Hey, I wrote this book on this topic that you guys don't know me from Adam. Or, or Teddy and, uh, here, what, uh, what do I do? And, and, uh, people aren't going to buy it because they're not buying into it. I mean, cause you sound like a used car salesman at that point. Like, Hey, here, buy this book.

Craig: I'm an authority in it. Even though you don't know who I am, it's hard to, it's hard to make that sale. And if you are good at that, well then there's a lot of stuff you can sell. That isn't a nonfiction book that sell yourself as an authority and get in those groups and provide advice. And all of a sudden.

Craig: Uh, they recognize who you are and you grow. You go to a few conferences, you provide some speeches. And, uh, there you go. You can sell your stuff. 

Teddy: Yeah. So I think the posting in Facebook groups, especially, I think is quite a good way to build up your authority because I know people think they often say to me, Oh, it seems silly that I'm just posting a Facebook group.

Teddy: What's that going to do? But you know, it's got to start somewhere and that it builds over time. It's snowballs. It's not just the case of I'm posting once in his. Yeah, here's my thousand sales. You know, you're building up that online reputation for doing what you do 

Craig: and don't be a dick because if you're mean to people, if you're just, I mean, if you're coming across as an ass, uh, it all goes to your brand, especially when you're talking nonfiction.

Craig: You have to be above board. I've said things that have set people off unintentionally. Mind you, But golly gosh, darn, that was, uh, that gets rough when they, uh, when they go all, uh, scorched earth on you. And I've had that done to me more than once. I've had it done like three times where they try to come scorched earth on me.

Craig: And all you can do is apologize and move on and, and get them focused on, Hey, here's what this is about. We're doing this. This is about selling more books. What are you doing? Here's what I'm doing. And, uh, and take their focus off just trying to be mean. And there's a lot of unhappy people on the internet.

Craig: I know this may come as a revelation, but there are a lot of unhappy people and they want to take it out on somebody, especially anybody they consider an authority figure. And once you establish yourself as an authority, you definitely have to watch your words very carefully. No matter what the, the platform, whether you think it's a private platform or you think it's a private event, you still have to watch your words because once you become that public figure, you are, uh, 100 percent on display and every conversation is an interview.

Teddy: Yep. That makes sense. So with these, with the Facebook groups that you run, so 20 books to 50 K, that's the one where you're the chief post chief poster in chief. Um, and so what's, what's the Facebook group? Depends. Let's go into a bit about how you manage that as well later on. So that's what's the concept.

Craig: That's it's Michael Anderley's brainchild. He was on the, sitting on the beach in Cabo San Lucas, and he'd published three books already, and he was making a solid 22 a day on them, those three books. And, uh, he looked at it and said, geez, to, to live comfortably here. I need 35, I need about 50, 000 a year in income.

Craig: How many books at earning 22 for three, so 7. 50 each, times 20 books equals 50, 000. So that's 20 books to 50K. It's not, you have to, you don't have to write 20 books in a year. You just have to have 20 books earning only 7. 50 a day each. That's a lot easier to internalize than saying, okay, Hey, you have to earn 2, 500 for a book, uh, in a year.

Teddy: Yeah. 

Craig: But 2, 500, that's 7. 50 a day. So, it's not overwhelming. And it's a lot easier to internalize. So, that's, that's the whole premise. And, uh, we had bad experiences, Michael and I both, on, uh, on keyboards. And, like, forget this. I, uh, we're gonna go over here where people are nice. And his number one rule is don't be a dick.

Craig: Uh, and that's so important and no self promo and all of a sudden now we've got people joining because they're like, Hey, I, I don't like this other group. You get really bad advice or you get the advice I got from keyboards. Don't quit your day job. I'm sorry. I already retired my day job. I'm going to write.

Craig: And, uh, so if you think this is bad, well, let's go. And I'm glad I, I didn't try to go back and find another day job because. Who wants to sit behind a computer all day and be a lawyer when you can sit behind a computer all day and be an author?

Teddy: And so what's in, in, in the actual group itself? What's because it's like 80, 000 members or something like that. It's amazing. Um, what's, what the, what the sort of conversation points that people have, like, do you post in there with tips or is it more people asking questions? 

Craig: We have, uh, oh geez, I think we have a couple hundred thousand posts.

Craig: People will post, but we also have it moderated. So you post and it's like waiting for a moderator to approve and, uh, we'll approve, we're probably only approving, uh, 15, 20 percent of the posts because they're not unique, they're, uh, uh, very self, uh, focused and we try to have posts that apply to more people.

Craig: Uh, anybody else's sales down? I mean, that's not a good post because the answer is 50 percent of people are going to say yes, 50 percent are going to say no. Uh, that, that adds no value to any conversation. And, uh, conversations that start with like, so this is going, no, that's drama. We don't do drama either because you make no money off drama.

Craig: Uh, you make money off writing the next book. So I always push on, right. Are you writing the next book? Well, I'm so depressed about my last book. My only book that I wrote, it doesn't sell. Well, my first book didn't sell either until I sold it to Shred Pub and then they, they, they took the responsibility for selling it, but that was a fluke.

Craig: That was, you can't, you can't follow that route. And so for myself, publishing, I was writing other books and those, those were doing better and better each month. And that was something that I could control because once Trad got a hold of those books, they took the marketing, they took the advertising, I had no control over any of that.

Craig: So when sales dipped, I'm like, Hey guys, what's going on? It's like, Nothing. Just sales dip. I go, okay. What are we doing about that? Nothing. What do you want us to do? Oh, I would like you to advertise it more. Oh no, no, no. We don't have that kind of budget. So yeah. Have a nice day. Yeah. And you can control all that.

Craig: One of my best sellers right now is a book that I published, uh, back in 2016, my free trader, uh, books. Those are getting a rejuvenation. We're doing a free trader board game on Kickstarter next year. Uh, along with I'm going to write free trader 10. So I'm going to open that series back up and add some books to it.

Craig: Exclusive to the Kickstarter to help, uh, uh, get that rolling. And, and that series I've sold 130, 000 copies of. Free trader books. 

Teddy: Wow. Amazing. That's um, we always, it's one of the, uh, the concepts we talked about a lot on this podcast is like how you can expand past the books, especially with the nonfiction, but with both, uh, and like into.

Teddy: building other forms of income. So it could be a blog or like physical products like you're doing. Um, is that, is that the first time you've done, uh, that sort of thing, like a physical products, the, uh, another expansions to business, 

Craig: the, the revenue streams you want to, uh, maximize your revenue streams. I have, most of my books are in audio.

Craig: Uh, the, uh, I, I have some great narrators who've taken good care of me and the Ian Bragg series. I have those, uh, In audio, but I'm wide audio. I'm not exclusive to Amazon. I used to be, and I pulled it out. So I'm wide audio. So I get a nice paycheck from find a way voices every, every month. Uh, Spotify is doing great for me.

Craig: Uh, and also I put them on YouTube, so I have a monetized YouTube channel. And, uh, they're doing fine there. And I had them translated into German, with, uh, translatebooks. com, which is a human translation. And human editor and then human proofreader. And those are killing it in Germany. So my, my German sales for 25 to 30 percent of my revenue and I have six books over there.

Teddy: Wow. 

Craig: Yeah. 

Teddy: That's amazing. And people, I mean, people don't even consider those. So when you're translating fiction, do you, is it, these are the fiction books? There's a fiction. Yeah. 

Craig: I didn't translate my nonfiction because I don't translate directly. 

Teddy: How do you make sure that the tone of voice is, has you wanted it in the first place?

Craig: I, uh, hire a good company and I pay a lot of money for the translations that are quality. And, and get the same translator, uh, so, uh, uh, the, uh, consistency in the language and in the approach. And they've done a great job as evidence. Now, Germans are a lot harder on books when it comes to reviews than Americans.

Craig: So, uh, or in the English speaking audience. So, I just, I just accept that my, my thrillers in Germany are going to have a 4. 0 average at best. And I've got anywhere from 3. 8 to 4. 2. Okay, you look at that and say, oh my god, what am I doing wrong? Nothing. You're not doing anything wrong. They're still selling.

Craig: So, Ian Bragg is, uh, the Germans love to hate Ian Bragg. And, and it's okay. Their, their standards are a lot different. Two, it's not a horrible review in, uh, in the German market. Uh, and some of them, they get, it's, it's one star where they write a, uh, a, uh, a dissertation on how horrible your book was. Okay, I mean, like, uh, they can hurt if people read it, but people write so many words, it's like nobody's going to read that.

Craig: Uh, good. So your lengthy diatribe on how bad my book was, and none of them complain about the translation. They complain about It's not enough thrills. Okay. Okay. That's why I sell it as action adventure in Germany. However, the, it is called the Ian Bragg thriller series, but it's assassin thriller and assassins don't go out there and kill, you know, a person, a chapter you can't survive that way.

Craig: You would, uh, You know, uh, it, it wouldn't, it, it would never work. 

Teddy: No, brilliant. That's really how I've, that's the first time I've had someone on here talking about translating, uh, novels, uh, or like fiction books. So that's really interesting that people do that. Um, so, so I know previously we've, you've stopped doing your networking, your, um, conference, the 20 books, 50 K now, cause you've got a little bit burnt out, but I was wondering if we could talk about that a little bit, like, especially like how you got going with that.

Teddy: How, how it evolves. Um, and then maybe we can think about some other conferences that you think are worth going to. And if they are, if they are worth going to, so maybe we could just start with like talking about the, that conference. Do you set up first? 

Craig: Okay. 20 bucks. Vegas built from a, uh, when I first contracted with Sam's town in 2016.

Craig: Uh, we had, uh, uh, 2017, we had 150 people say they wanted to come. And, uh, when we're, when we ran the conference, when we finally ran it, uh, November of 2017, we had 435 people show up. So we, good thing that we were in a, uh, in a room that could be expanded cause we did. And after that we grew to 700, 1100, 1500, 18, 1900.

Craig: So we were, we were pushing 2000. And. Uh, Sam's, Sam's Club, uh, Sam's Town in, uh, in Vegas is off the Strip, so it's a much cheaper venue, but it was limited in size. We could only, they only had 600 hotel rooms or 700 rooms total in the facility, and we were pushing numbers. Our last one, we had 1, 100 people attend.

Craig: When they only had 600 hotel rooms. So it was, it was a severe challenge for us. And so we had to upgrade. So we went to Bali's that then renamed itself. It's not horseshoe and 1900 people. And we got the whole facility, but it drove our costs up because I really wanted to keep it. A hundred bucks for the conference rooms are for a hundred bucks.

Craig: And, and, uh, I, I couldn't do that anymore. Uh uh, and now the conference is 400 to $500. However, it's five full days. Last year, uh, was the last year for it. We had 75 different vendors and all the big names, we had all the, uh, audiobook producers. We had all the, uh. Uh, uh, paperback and, and book distributors like Amazon, Barnes Noble, Apple, everybody was there.

Craig: And so five days worth of being able to network and meet other authors in your genre. It, uh, it was such a spectacular event. And also I ran it not for profit. So, uh, any kind of, uh, extra money I had, I would plow it back in with. With more stuff, better, better, uh, uh, swag. And, and then, uh, with my health taking a severe hit, I, uh, I had heart surgery, uh, four years ago and, uh, then it was, uh, it, uh, the issue that they resolved was coming back.

Craig: And I'm like, okay, I can't, I can't do this. This is going to kill me because it is a lot of stress, even though the week itself is a lot of fun. It goes great. People are so happy and energized. Uh, so I had three years of contracts left and thank, thank goodness my friend Joe Solari saw the potential of the conference.

Craig: And no, it's not 20 books. It's not related 20 books at all. However, it is a conference for indie authors. It's called author nation. It's in the same facility and he's going to run things differently completely. It's it's I'm not involved with any of the planning or any of the execution of the conference.

Craig: I am solely the scholarship director. So I, I I'll handle the scholarships, uh, making sure that, uh, that we select good people that will hopefully get a lot out of these, uh, uh, But it's for Indies. It's November 11th to 15th this year. And I wish them well. They're doing the presentations differently. And it's okay.

Craig: It's their conference now to do with as they please. But it's all about serving the Indie community. But also it changed from a not for profit to a for profit model. So there's different pricing structures, uh, that, uh, could throw people for a loop because mine was you pay 500, you're in, you're into everything.

Craig: And, uh, uh, there you go. Have a nice day. And if you. You presented at the book signing conference. I charged 50 bucks cause that was my cost for a table. So, uh, I, you paid what I'm paying, uh, the, the table company and, uh, and things like that. And some, some of that structure has changed, but understandably so because there, uh, you can do it out of the kindness of your heart until your heart fails on you.

Craig: And, uh, uh, I didn't want that for anybody else. So Joe's is running it like a business and still, uh, Happy customers will bring the business back and he understands that. So we'll see what we'll see in November and see how happy the customers are. And I expect they will be and then, uh, they'll take it from there.

Craig: They've got it, but they've got through three more years, uh, 24, five and six. They're under contract, 

Teddy: right? I'm going to try and go this year. I think, um, for people like me, so I'm in the UK, obviously, are there any conferences or networking things, uh, that you've done or you recommend people to look up around the world?

Teddy: I know not everyone can afford to go to Las Vegas for like a week. So what is there other, is there other conferences around the world? And also what should people do to get the most out of those sort of events? 

Craig: Okay. Other conferences around the world. If you're in the UK, you want to go to the self publishing show live.

Craig: Uh, James Blatch has already committed for next year. They caught him at a weak moment. Uh, cause I talked to him before the show when he was still in, in great turmoil. Cause until the show starts, he's There's so many changes and hassles. It just sucks the life out of you and gives you gray hair or in your case, no hair.

Craig: And in my case too, uh, but so at the end of the conference, everybody was so happy. So self publishing show live, it was a June. It's been June the last couple of years. I'm not sure when exactly it'll be, but it's the South bank of London. And, uh, and I think they might be moving venues, but I'm not sure.

Craig: And we'll, uh, uh, they have great guest speakers. They have great, uh, uh, industry professionals that come and hang out in a lobby area. And if they change venues, that will change a little bit, but, uh, it's there. And the good news is it was only like 150 pounds for a conference ticket. And they had add ons depending on what you wanted to do.

Craig: A little bit. So, uh, so inexpensive, except for being on London South bank. Some people just commuted in like an hour on the train, uh, to get there. 

Teddy: Just 

Craig: staying on the South bank, especially, unfortunately, the conference was at exactly the same time as Taylor Swift's last Wembley stadium show. So the, uh, the hotel room that I had for 200, 200 quid a night was like 450 quid a night.

Craig: It's the tape. The Taylor Swift effect. So I paid an absolute bundle for, uh, for those rooms. 

Teddy: Yeah. 

Craig: But, uh, it was 

Teddy: And how do you get 

Craig: Yeah, go ahead. 

Teddy: I was gonna say, uh, getting the most out of these conferences, like, what's your tips for, like, getting the most out of them when you're there? 

Craig: To get the most out of them, I, I say have three objectives, three things that you want to get.

Craig: So you have three, uh, of the sessions that you want to attend and listen to and take notes from. And, and then follow up with the presenter if you can. Thanks And the presenters are all available after at, after their session or at sometime during the show and then three people you want to meet. And these three people, I mean, don't, don't play the fool.

Craig: I'm your biggest fan. Oh my God. And cry on you. I mean, and that's okay. I, I, I shouldn't, I shouldn't laugh at that because I've had people cry on me all the time because it's like, Hey, you've changed my life. And that's hard. It's hard not to, uh, uh, to be emotionally engaged by that because these are, these are people, cause we've been 20 books of 50 K.

Craig: We shared a lot of information. We've made a lot of information available in my books and in presentations. I do a five minute focus video every day for five minutes or so. And, uh, I'm up to episode 950. That'll be tomorrow. 950 episodes. Wow. That's all the help authors help them with their mindset.

Craig: Mindset is, uh, is half the battle. And the other half is you got to get a book done. And if you can get the book done and you have the right mindset, you can put it in the right reader's hands. You may not have, you may not like the advertising part, but you still have to do it and you can do it while focusing on writing your book, because it's not like, Hey, buy my book.

Craig: No, no. It's like, Hey, here's a book that, uh, with this series and this topic that you might like, because you seem to like these kinds of books. Could you give it a look? Uh, as simple as that. 

Teddy: Yep. 

Craig: There's a, and let Amazon do it for you. Do the generic ads. Where you just do automatic targeting and oh my God, they make it so easy.

Teddy: Good place to start with the automatic ads, um, but can get a bit expensive. If you don't like to keep track of those keywords, I guess. Um, yeah, I mean, so yeah, brilliant. Thank you so much for this useful information. So I think that's been really, really great. I think people have got a lot out of it. Um, just before we leave.

Teddy: So usually we finish with like a book recommendation that you've got, um, that you think everyone should be reading at the moment, but maybe isn't, or it could be something else you'd like to recommend. Uh, so what is it that you'd like to recommend? 

Craig: I tell you what, because I've seen that question a lot.

Craig: What book should everyone read? I think everyone needs to read a book. You need to read something. Uh, the books are going to be different for each person, but give it a chapter. And if it doesn't catch you by that point, then go pick up a different book. And find one that does hook you in that first chapter, and then keep reading, and enjoy it.

Craig: Disappear into that world, disappear into that environment. And just enjoy reading a book. It's the best entertainment value for your money is reading a book. So find a good one, give them a chapter. And if they don't hook you, move on. I'm not going to tell you to read a book that you're not going to like just because Hey, Craig Martel said, read this.

Craig: What a waste of your time. Make it, make it a value for you. Make it an investment of your time. 

Teddy: Brilliant. All right. Well, so the tip is just to read as many books as you can. That's great. Um, well, thanks so much. So before we go, where's the best place to feed people to contact you or to, um, follow you further?

Teddy: Um, where, where, where, where's the best place for you to people to 

Craig: CraigMartell. com. That's C R A I G M A R T E L L E. com. And, uh, there you go. Bob's your uncle. Anything you want is there. I've got children's books. I've got thrillers. I've got a young adult. I've written a lot of different stuff, but I don't recommend that.

Craig: I recommend staying in a, in one lane. It it'll be easier and better for you. 

Teddy: And if people want to join the Facebook group, the 20 books to 50 K, uh, that's just such that on Facebook 

Craig: 20 books to 50 K. Make sure it's not, we have almost 80, 000 members. There are some clone groups out there trying to, uh, uh, uh, be awesome.

Craig: The 20 Books trademark owner has sent cease and desist letters to those scumbags trying to horn off their trademark. But the big group, there's three questions to get in, and you can't get in until you answer those, and give us a good justification on why you should be in there, along with using an established profile, and we don't allow pages.

Craig: So you can't join as a page, you have to join as you personally. Because, uh, pages could be run by who knows who. 

Teddy: Great. Well, that's so that's, that's amazing. Thank you so much for your time today. Uh, yeah, we'll speak again soon. 

Craig: Thank you. Thanks a lot, Teddy. I appreciate it.